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Thread: Smuggling

  1. #1
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Smuggling

    Here's a domain action I came up with. What do you guys think?

    Gary

    -

  2. #2
    Crossfell@aol.co
    Guest

    Smuggling

    I like the concept. Believe that a chance of having the local navy intercept
    the smuggler's ship/caravan needs to be incorporated. If caught there needs
    to be a chance that they talk and reveal the guilty regent. Chances of being
    caught would be based on military presence, either armies or navy on the route
    chosen. A 5% chance of detection should always be the case. Beef it up to
    25%, 50%, 75% or even 95% based on military presence.

    Now does the smuggler's trade route count against the maximum number of trade
    routes permitted? If not does it detract from the legitimate trade routes
    profit since the black market usually undersells their goods? Also, is there
    a limit on smuggler's routes?

    Cheers,

    Steve

  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Smuggling

    Crossfell@aol.com wrote:

    > I like the concept. Believe that a chance of having the local navy intercept
    > the smuggler's ship/caravan needs to be incorporated. If caught there needs
    > to be a chance that they talk and reveal the guilty regent. Chances of being
    > caught would be based on military presence, either armies or navy on the route
    > chosen. A 5% chance of detection should always be the case. Beef it up to
    > 25%, 50%, 75% or even 95% based on military presence.
    >
    > Now does the smuggler's trade route count against the maximum number of trade
    > routes permitted? If not does it detract from the legitimate trade routes
    > profit since the black market usually undersells their goods? Also, is there
    > a limit on smuggler's routes?

    As I had envisioned it, a smuggling trade route would have to abide by all the
    rules of a regular trade route, so it would count as a trade route for the
    purposes of the maximum number permitted.

    Since smuggling routes could be either made by sea or by land I had thought an
    Intrigue, Adventure or Espionage would be required to discover it.

    Gary

  4. #4

    Smuggling

    I was just going to ask this very thing....
    OK. So there is a single smuggling route in a province. Along comes everyone's
    friend, Orthien Tane (second time today... who do you suppose is going to be
    playing him in a PBeM????) and builds up a wack regular of trade routes in that
    same province. Now, as far as he knows, there should still be one level of trade
    route left in this province (but it is actually filled by the smuggling route).
    Wouldn't the jig be up so to speak, when Orthien found out he couldn't create that
    last TR? Although not exposed, the smuggling route *IS* exposed. How do you
    explain this in game terms? How to get around it?

    Keith

    Crossfell@aol.com wrote:



    > Now does the smuggler's trade route count against the maximum number of trade
    > routes permitted? If not does it detract from the legitimate trade routes
    > profit since the black market usually undersells their goods? Also, is there
    > a limit on smuggler's routes?
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Steve
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > - --
    "I am your humble knight, and I swear allegiance to the courage and power in your
    veins.
    So strong it is, it's source must be Uther Pendragon."
    The Draftmine (Home of the Brass Boar & other Oddities.)
    http://www.angelfire.com/ak/draftmine/
    Brenna's Blood Secret PbeM (A Haven's of the Great Bay PBeM.)
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/2239/index.htm

  5. #5
    dominicreynolds@dial.pip
    Guest

    Smuggling

    >Now does the smuggler's trade route count against the maximum number of trade
    >routes permitted? If not does it detract from the legitimate trade routes
    >profit since the black market usually undersells their goods? Also, is there
    >a limit on smuggler's routes?

    I would probably rule that the smuggling route, made other routes less
    profitable,
    and allow additional routes to be created by smuggling.

    eg

    Level 4 province with two legitimate trade routes out gaining say 4gb each.

    Someone sets up a smuggling route, which is untaxable but reduces the
    profitability
    of the other routes.


    Before
    Legit TR No1 4gb
    Legit TR No2 4gb

    After

    Legit TR No1 3gb
    Legit TR No2 3gb
    Smuggling TR No1 2gb *detect on a 20*



    Next Round someone else sets up a smuggling route
    Legit TR No1 2gb
    Legit TR No2 2gb

    Smuggling TR No1 2gb *detect on a 10*
    Smuggling TR No2 2gb *detect on a 10*


    Next Rooung someone else sets up a smuggling route

    Legit TR No1 1gb
    Legit TR No2 1gb
    Smuggling TR No1 1gb *detect on a 10*
    Smuggling TR No2 1gb *detect on a 10*
    Smuggling TR No3 3gb *detect on a 5*

    etc

    I would also rule a smuggling route takes 1gb and 1rp to maintain.




    Dom
    - ---

    mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com or mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

  6. #6
    MANTA
    Guest

    Smuggling

    I like your idea very much as it makes perfect sense but what you propose
    would immediately alert other guilders of the smuggling trade route (they
    would know they┬┤re loosing money because someone is smuggling).
    In order to avoid this I think the following rule could help:
    - - All trade routes now collect GB equal to

    (Starting Province┬┤s level + Ending Province┬┤s level) - 2 +1d3

    This makes the TR proffit vary (TR can make 1 GB more or less than the
    oficial rules predict).
    And, Smuggling TR would make 1GB per each "Oficial " TR existing in the
    Province they start. The number of Smuggling TR is ilimited (but if they
    start multipliying other Guilder will notice something┬┤s wrong for sure)
    Maintaining a Smuggling TR would cost 1 GB (bribes and special cares)

    Just my 2 "centavos".

    MANTA
    ip209007@ip.pt
    ICQ: 17080887
    - ----------
    > From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
    > To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    > Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Smuggling
    > Date: sábado, 28 de novembro de 1998 10:21
    >
    >
    > >Now does the smuggler's trade route count against the maximum number of
    trade
    > >routes permitted? If not does it detract from the legitimate trade
    routes
    > >profit since the black market usually undersells their goods? Also, is
    there
    > >a limit on smuggler's routes?
    >
    > I would probably rule that the smuggling route, made other routes less
    > profitable,
    > and allow additional routes to be created by smuggling.
    >
    > eg
    >
    > Level 4 province with two legitimate trade routes out gaining say 4gb
    each.
    >
    > Someone sets up a smuggling route, which is untaxable but reduces the
    > profitability
    > of the other routes.
    >
    >
    > Before
    > Legit TR No1 4gb
    > Legit TR No2 4gb
    >
    > After
    >
    > Legit TR No1 3gb
    > Legit TR No2 3gb
    > Smuggling TR No1 2gb *detect on a 20*
    >
    >
    >
    > Next Round someone else sets up a smuggling route
    > Legit TR No1 2gb
    > Legit TR No2 2gb
    >
    > Smuggling TR No1 2gb *detect on a 10*
    > Smuggling TR No2 2gb *detect on a 10*
    >
    >
    > Next Rooung someone else sets up a smuggling route
    >
    > Legit TR No1 1gb
    > Legit TR No2 1gb
    > Smuggling TR No1 1gb *detect on a 10*
    > Smuggling TR No2 1gb *detect on a 10*
    > Smuggling TR No3 3gb *detect on a 5*
    >
    > etc
    >
    > I would also rule a smuggling route takes 1gb and 1rp to maintain.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dom
    > ---
    >
    > mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com or mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com
    >> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    line
    > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    Smuggling

    Not a bad idea, but it raises the question: just exactly how much does a
    regent know about what goes on in his domain? Couldn't someone just set up a
    TR without contacting the local province ruler(s)? Of course, once the
    province ruler and/or law regent finds out, they could then shut it off or
    demand to tax it.

    Lee.

  8. #8
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Smuggling

    LeeHa1854@aol.com wrote:

    > Not a bad idea, but it raises the question: just exactly how much does a
    > regent know about what goes on in his domain? Couldn't someone just set up a
    > TR without contacting the local province ruler(s)? Of course, once the
    > province ruler and/or law regent finds out, they could then shut it off or
    > demand to tax it.

    I think a regent pretty much knows everything that goes on in his domain on the
    level of domain actions, except those things that the rules specifically say or
    imply are secret. If someone creates a guild or temple holding, agitates, or
    starts trade route in a province, all the regents in the province(s) involved
    know about it. IMC, trade routes are also amazingly easy to tax, requiring only
    a Decree action. I figure the merchants on a trade route have to pass through
    city gates, dock at the city docks, unload cargo in the Merchant district,
    exchange currency at the money changer, etc. All of these activities are pretty
    easily regulated by the province ruler, making a trade route very easy to tax.
    The money is deducted automatically because I think the GBs taxed are
    representative of dozens of smaller taxes and charges.

    Hence the need for a smuggling trade route. In the Netbook there is a domain
    action for creating Secret Society holdings, which are more difficult to
    destroy. I think smuggling should be similar to that. The chief advantage of a
    smuggling trade route is that it avoids taxes. My rationalization for not making
    the smuggling action generate more or less GB than a normal trade route is that I
    see the higher profit being made by avoiding docking fees, tolls, etc. as being
    pretty much offset by the additional money in bribes and pay to the smugglers
    that such an activity would require.

    My reason for saying that it is considered a "normal" trade route for the
    purposes of determining the maximum number of trade routes available into or out
    of a province is because of my (admittedly limited) understanding of economics
    which leads me to believe that smuggling would not actually create a market.
    Despite the efforts of the War On Drugs crowd to argue the opposite, markets
    exist regardless of the means used to bring products to market, so I don't see
    much of a reason to change the established BR means of determining revenue. I
    also thought that smuggling should not necessarily be only illicit goods like
    drugs, weapons, whatever. Someone could just as easily want to smuggle lumber,
    textiles, food, etc. just as people right now smuggle cigarettes or liquor in
    order to avoid the high taxes on those items. By making the smuggling trade
    route count as one of the regular trade routes I thought I could reflect that
    aspect of it.

    My last, and most important reason for designing the smuggling trade route the
    way I did was because it's easier. I don't want to differ from the rules too
    much on this issue because the rules work pretty well and I can't come up with a
    compelling reason to change them.

    The way I plan on handling a smuggled trade route is that it is just like any
    other trade route for all intents and purposes, except only the guilder regent
    knows about it. Should any other regent attempt to discover it there are various
    methods they can use to do so; Espionage and Adventure actions, for instance. An
    Intrigue might reveal its presence. Should a regent attempt to create a trade
    route using the supposedly empty slot that is occupied by the smuggling trade
    route the action will simply fail. This may or may not clue in the regent trying
    to do legit business that something underhanded it going on. If he adds enough
    RPs to ensure his success the action will still fail and he'd have to be wooden
    headed not to realize something was up, but he will still have to use an action
    (thieves get a free espionage action) to find out exactly what it is. What he
    does about it is up to him....

    Gary

  9. #9
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Smuggling

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Gary V. Foss
    Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 4:21 PM

    >
    >I think a regent pretty much knows everything that goes on in his domain on
    the
    >level of domain actions, except those things that the rules specifically
    say or
    >imply are secret. If someone creates a guild or temple holding, agitates,
    or
    >starts trade route in a province, all the regents in the province(s)
    involved
    >know about it.

    My assumption is the opposite, that Regents only know what they, or their
    agents witness. Further I assume that PC's are not aware of the various
    levels of holdings or characters. Those are IMO game mechanics, and players
    should be left to wonder exactly how much power other regents have in their
    realm.

    >IMC, trade routes are also amazingly easy to tax, requiring only
    >a Decree action. I figure the merchants on a trade route have to pass
    through
    >city gates, dock at the city docks, unload cargo in the Merchant district,
    >exchange currency at the money changer, etc. All of these activities are
    pretty
    >easily regulated by the province ruler, making a trade route very easy to
    tax.
    >The money is deducted automatically because I think the GBs taxed are
    >representative of dozens of smaller taxes and charges.
    >
    Again I am 180 degrees different in my assumptions. I think the petty
    taxes, tolls, and fees are collected by local governments, and never are
    part of the realm's treasury. That merchants, caravans, and fairs would
    move to avoid taxation. Given that trade routes require a change in terrain
    or culture, it only goes to suggest that if there are obtacles in place in
    one location, sell the goods somewhere else. Further, customs officials
    are expensive. Why would a regent with a customs apparatus pay the same
    maintenance as a ruler who does not have such administrative obligations?

    I have stated before that I believe all trade routes employ smuggling.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  10. #10
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Smuggling

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > Again I am 180 degrees different in my assumptions. I think the petty
    > taxes, tolls, and fees are collected by local governments, and never are part of the realm's treasury. That merchants, caravans, and fairs would move to avoid taxation. Given that trade routes require a change in terrain or culture, it only goes to suggest that if there are obtacles in place in one location, sell the goods somewhere else.

    More probable is that if Regent X didn't make sure his local governments
    kept the money flowing up the chain of command to his coffers; or didn't
    make sure that his tax policies on merchants weren't matching other
    realms beside him, Regent X would lose his realm pretty fast. And
    Regent X would deserve it.

    Why? Because 1) His lenient tax policies would keep his own coffers
    bare of the best commodity in any advanced society - cold, hard
    currency. Merchants are the single best source for that particular
    necessity (beside the regent of course!:P), so where else do the gold
    coins come from? Certainly not the unwashed. And (2) The realms
    around him would begin to suffer from the loss of economic trade in
    their own realms, and guess who is to blame? What happens, when your
    power base is threatened? One eliminates that threat, and voila!
    Regent X would soon seriously face several wars on every front, if he
    couldn't be persuaded to level the playing field. And how could Regent
    X face the armies, with no cold hard currency to pay for the extra
    mercenaries? Answer: Regent X would fall quickly.

    So, merchants can gripe all they want, and dream of greener pastures
    over in the next realm (like they always have, since time began, and
    still do today), but the fact remains that rulers must tax - or quickly
    get crushed by those who do because rulers of Prince John's stripe can't
    afford to let such a benevolent ruler get away with it. So, merchants
    wouldn't just pack up and leave, because the next town over has just as
    heavy a tax load. And the next, and so on (with slight variations of
    course - I don't mean to imply that every realm is homogenous, but the
    point is the same - taxes are everywhere and come in all varieties).

    There are plenty of real world examples of the above in history - heck,
    even today! Guess what the Iraqi war was fought for? Because of
    threats to Kuwait or the other Middle East States? Don't think so - its
    because America couldn't let Hussien have economic or physical control
    over their major oil supply. Wars are fought for economic reasons, as
    any good priest of Sera will tell you! :P

    > Why would a regent with a customs apparatus pay the same
    > maintenance as a ruler who does not have such administrative obligations?<

    Well, IMC, its already included in the domain maintenance. If Regent X
    is stupid enough to give his customs officials a holiday, he still
    doesn't get to keep their wages - Regent X pays up or faces rebellion
    (and who better to screw up your day than your own tax collectors!)
    Besides, the money goes through the customs officials first, so guess
    who gets paid first every month! Mwuhahahaa. :)



    Cheers,
    Darren

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