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Thread: Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
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11-07-1998, 11:25 PM #1Craig GreesonGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I think its a good solution which, in the abstract solves the most glaring
> problems with troop availability. Unfortunatly, greater realism requires
> exponentialy creater complexity. Craig's offering, while oversimplified (as
> he admits) is functional, reasonable, do-able, and elegant. For those
> regents with several regent-players, or lots of military activity, who would
> rather not keep several pages of tables, and do book-keeping on
> individualized availablity of units, this should be a good system.
>
> For those who are gluttons for detail, I suggest more a more complex method.
> Take terrain type into account and set fixed limits on certain troop types
> (esp knights and archers), and make them easier to raise, but limited by
> their fixed availablity, so that mobilization requires falling back on the
> less easily raised, but more numerous kinds of infantry.
Good point regarding limiting Knights. They always seem to be overused in
Anuire, IMO. I'm not as concerned about archers (although, if I wanted my
campaign to better approximate RL, I probably should be). How about the
following house rule for limiting Knights:
- - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population level
of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population levels
above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for a
lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).
- - A regent who wishes to add additional Knight units beyond his realms
normal maximum can do so. However these units cost 2X the normal muster
cost (i.e. 12GB, rather than 6GB). They also take twice as long to form as
what we had discussed using the "prolonged Muster" rule (i.e. 12 months,
rather than 6). This simulates the fact that once you've exhausted your
minor nobility as knights, additional units don't come prepared with most
of their own equipment, and they require a great deal of training.
Maintenance costs would still remain at 2GB.
OK, how do these normal maximums work out for selected realms in Anuire?
Avanil: 6 Knight units
Boeruine: 6 Knights
Ghoere: 8 Knights
Diemed: 4 Knights
Roesone: 1 Knight
Seems reasonable to me. All you Roesone fans may not like it, but it is
still supposed to be somewhat of a frontier realm, right? The only realm
with military units listed in the Ruins of Empire book that seems to go
beyond the normal maximum I propose is Alamie. And that Corilon Alam (sp?)
is just stubborn enough to way overspend so he could add that 2nd unit of
Knights, IMO.
Comments or suggestions?
Regards
Craig
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11-08-1998, 12:02 AM #2JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
In a message dated 11/7/98 5:28:46 PM Central Standard Time,
cgreeson@ccipost.net writes:
>
I don't like a rule like this. It favors the larger areas. Does Medore have
no nobles? I think they do. A fairer rule would be to total the provience
levels and then divide by 4. This is a little more realsitic as a Domain of
lvl 3 still has nobles willing to fight. Or are the nobles of the lvl 4 areas
only patriotic enough to join the fight.
Another thing to consider, what does population have to do with nobility?
Nothing?
Also Re-read the description, nobles are not all that composes a knight unit.
Also armies are usually 200 men. In a lvl 3 provience that could be about
8,000 to 10,000 people. Are you telling me in medieval times they couldn't
find 200 or so guys with military training and raise them in a month? It also
wouldn't be so hard to think that the regent has a few catalogs or fighters
and soldiers, militia men and such that could be mustered in case of war.
I like the idea of the quick muster. after all a lvl 1 provience can only
make 1 unit, lvl 4 makes 4. Makes a defensive war more probable the an
offensive and contributes to the stability to borders. Also a Regent usually
has a small amount of GBs on hand, unless they maintain a defense fund, then
they would have some units laying in wait.
Plus units mustered can't be used in the same action they where mustered, so
as defensive units they are not as flexable as units already mustered.
just a few things to think about.
Jules
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11-08-1998, 02:56 AM #3Craig GreesonGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
>
> I don't like a rule like this. It favors the larger areas. Does Medore have
> no nobles? I think they do. A fairer rule would be to total the provience
> levels and then divide by 4. This is a little more realsitic as a Domain of
> lvl 3 still has nobles willing to fight. Or are the nobles of the lvl 4 areas
> only patriotic enough to join the fight.
Your suggestion is certainly another reasonable way to look at limiting the
availability of knights. My rationale in only considering level 4 or
greater provinces when determining how many knights could be raised
inexpensively was as follows:
1- Knights can only be raised in level 4 or greater provinces per the BR
Rulebook
2- Level 3 or lower provinces are "thinly settled rural regions", again per
the Rulebook. IMC, knights aren't just guys who can ride heavy warhorses
and use lances. They are very wealthy people who can afford plate mail, a
heavy warhorse, swords, lances, etc... This would cost more than 1000 gold
pieces per knight if you use Player's Handbook prices. It seems to me only
very wealthy provinces are going to be able to provide more than a tiny
handful of people with this kind of wealth. They're going to be few and
far between even in the wealthiest, most heavily settled areas. I
definitely don't think the designers intended for a regent's 6GB to
purchase all the equipment a unit of knights needed.
3- A pair of lvl. 3 provinces are not nearly the same as a lvl. 6 province
from a population standpoint. If we assume our provinces have 90% of the
max. population listed on pg. 33 of the Rulebook, a pair of lvl. 3
provinces would have 18,000 people, which is only 1/2 what you'd find in a
36,000 person lvl. 6 province. As you add more people to clear and work
the land, the wealth of the nobles in the area would increase greatly.
4- Finally, my whole intention within my own campaign IS to make more of a
distinction between the big realms and the more sparsely settled ones. In
my first campaign, PC Roesone, which had less than 1/2 Ghoere's population,
had a larger army and a multitude of knights. This was my own fault as a
DM, of course. I let the PCs get too much wealth from adventuring and from
the PC guilder's trade empire, and they could afford one heck of an army.
I'm not saying smaller domains shouldn't be able to raise additional knight
units. I just am suggesting that they should have to subsidize more of the
costs of the very expensive armor, mounts, and weapons required by these
units. Smaller realms (like Medoere) may certainly have the will and the
skill to fight, but there just aren't many people with the kind of wealth
needed to purchase their own "knightly" equipment.
> Also armies are usually 200 men. In a lvl 3 provience that could be about
> 8,000 to 10,000 people. Are you telling me in medieval times they couldn't
> find 200 or so guys with military training and raise them in a month? It also
> wouldn't be so hard to think that the regent has a few catalogs or fighters
> and soldiers, militia men and such that could be mustered in case of war.
> I like the idea of the quick muster. after all a lvl 1 provience can only
> make 1 unit, lvl 4 makes 4. Makes a defensive war more probable the an
> offensive and contributes to the stability to borders. Also a Regent usually
> has a small amount of GBs on hand, unless they maintain a defense fund, then
> they would have some units laying in wait.
As a manufacturing manager, I can say from experience it's hard to put
together any type of cohesive work unit in a month. Recruiting, training,
finding leaders for, and supplying a sizable military unit has to be a heck
of a job, particularly with the meager communication channels available in
a medieval setting. I personally don't think it would be realistic to put
together a fully functional unit in that amount of time, regardless of
whether or not people were available who knew how to use the appropriate
weapon type. I'm no student of military history, however, so I could be
completely off base. Regardless, the Rulebook clearly states you can
Muster Armies in 1 month, regardless of unit type, so that's really all the
ammo you need to completely ignore the suggestions that were made
earlier.
Regards
Craig
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11-08-1998, 08:44 AM #4Jim CooperGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
Craig Greeson wrote:
> - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
> nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population level of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population levels above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for a lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).<
Holy Cow! This is exactly what I did! (I always liked the fact that
Ghoere should have the most knights of all the realms of Anuire, with
the possible exception of Boeruine and Avanil). However, I don't allow
ANY more knight untils over the maximum. What you've got in nobility
(province level) is what you get - other realms don't let go of their
noble fighting men that easily (nor are Anuirean nobles that 'mercenary'
either - they stick close to their homes).
Moreover, I don't allow a regent to muster more than one unit/province
level/*per year*, no matter what type they are (exception: levies and
mercenary units; regents can hire double # of merc units per province
level - levies are per the rules). This keeps regents from hiring
hordes of men at a moments notice; regents much think far ahead and
think about reinforcements and such.
Cheers,
Darren
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11-08-1998, 09:00 AM #5Jim CooperGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
> I don't like a rule like this. It favors the larger areas. Does Medore have no nobles? I think they do. A fairer rule would be to total the provience levels and then divide by 4. This is a little more realsitic as a Domain of lvl 3 still has nobles willing to fight. Or are the nobles of the lvl 4 areas only patriotic enough to join the fight.<
Yes, but considering that only provinces of level 4 and above are the
only ones able to raise knight units, it makes perfect sense. So, in
the case of Medoere, they can have one unit of knights, total (Alamier).
On the other hand, Ghoere, with more than ~8x the population base,
should be able to have at least 8 times more units of knights. No?
> Another thing to consider, what does population have to do with nobility? Nothing?<
It has everything to do with population - ESPECIALLY in a society based
on agriculture and feudalism (even BR 'feudalism' IMO). You can only
have so many non-productive members of society as there is excessive
food to feed them ...
> Also Re-read the description, nobles are not all that composes a knight unit.<
Very true - even moreso, IMO, with the specialty knight units like
Knights of Haelyn - there aren't all paladins IMO. Only a small
percentages are actually paladins - the rest are just really dedicated
(and skilled) fighters.
> Also armies are usually 200 men. In a lvl 3 provience that could be about 8,000 to 10,000 people. <
True, but IMC I've multiplied army and population values by ten. So,
armies now represent ~2000 souls. The IC IMC has ~1 million people! I
just like thinking in hordes, that's all - much more impressive and
fantastic! This is, after all, a fantasy game! :) (Plus, I reason,
even with the relatively few priests around, they would make SOME kind
of beneficial impact: ie. curing plagues, healing the sick, etc.
Priests in my game are very busy people, if that's in their god's sphere
of influence that is (ie certainly not Belinik or Sera, for example).
Cheers,
Darren
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11-08-1998, 01:31 PM #6Sindre BergGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
Craig Greeson wrote:
> Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > I think its a good solution which, in the abstract solves the most
> glaring
> > problems with troop availability. Unfortunatly, greater realism
> requires
> > exponentialy creater complexity. Craig's offering, while
> oversimplified (as
> > he admits) is functional, reasonable, do-able, and elegant. For
> those
> > regents with several regent-players, or lots of military activity,
> who would
> > rather not keep several pages of tables, and do book-keeping on
> > individualized availablity of units, this should be a good system.
> >
> > For those who are gluttons for detail, I suggest more a more complex
> method.
> > Take terrain type into account and set fixed limits on certain troop
> types
> > (esp knights and archers), and make them easier to raise, but
> limited by
> > their fixed availablity, so that mobilization requires falling back
> on the
> > less easily raised, but more numerous kinds of infantry.
>
> Good point regarding limiting Knights. They always seem to be
> overused in
> Anuire, IMO. I'm not as concerned about archers (although, if I
> wanted my
> campaign to better approximate RL, I probably should be). How about
> the
> following house rule for limiting Knights:
>
> - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
> nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population
> level
> of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population
> levels
> above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for
> a
> lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).
>
> - A regent who wishes to add additional Knight units beyond his realms
>
> normal maximum can do so. However these units cost 2X the normal
> muster
> cost (i.e. 12GB, rather than 6GB). They also take twice as long to
> form as
> what we had discussed using the "prolonged Muster" rule (i.e. 12
> months,
> rather than 6). This simulates the fact that once you've exhausted
> your
> minor nobility as knights, additional units don't come prepared with
> most
> of their own equipment, and they require a great deal of training.
> Maintenance costs would still remain at 2GB.
>
> OK, how do these normal maximums work out for selected realms in
> Anuire?
> Avanil: 6 Knight units
> Boeruine: 6 Knights
> Ghoere: 8 Knights
> Diemed: 4 Knights
> Roesone: 1 Knight
>
> Seems reasonable to me. All you Roesone fans may not like it, but it
> is
> still supposed to be somewhat of a frontier realm, right? The only
> realm
> with military units listed in the Ruins of Empire book that seems to
> go
> beyond the normal maximum I propose is Alamie. And that Corilon Alam
> (sp?)
> is just stubborn enough to way overspend so he could add that 2nd unit
> of
> Knights, IMO.
>
> Comments or suggestions?
>
> Regards
> Craig
> *****
> ************************************************** *******************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> I like it, but take a look at a bit similar house rule I made up
regarding all unit musters... It says that every province has drafting
level of twice it's province level. Every time a unit is raised it
lowers the drafting level of the province one point (possibly two for
heavy units ?). This points return after 1 year after the unit has been
raised, that is ONE point is returned after one year. Or you could just
rule that every new-year the drafting level goes up one point for
simplicity, up to the max level. And there is another issue...if you
want to raise a knight unit f. inst. you divide the drafting level by 2
(rounded down) and check that value against the level listed in RoE
(which is 4 for Knights if my memory holds).
This system was invented to cancel the ilogical number of young men
entering and army when you raised a big army. And to spread the muster
over your entire realm. It is not intended to stop people from raising
massive amounts of units at one time.. But possibly it could be added to
this delayed muster rules ?...
Any comments are welcome..
- --
Sindre
Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:
www.uio.no/~sindrejb
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11-08-1998, 08:21 PM #7Jim CooperGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
Sindre Berg wrote:
> I like it, but take a look at a bit similar house rule I made up
> regarding all unit musters... It says that every province has drafting
> level of twice it's province level. Every time a unit is raised it
> lowers the drafting level of the province one point (possibly two for
> heavy units ?). This points return after 1 year after the unit has been raised, that is ONE point is returned after one year. Or you could just rule that every new-year the drafting level goes up one point for
simplicity, up to the max level.<
I have done something like this IMC as well. I have created a POP, or
"Population Of Province" point value. I created this more to counteract
overuse of the rule realm action - now regents must wait until the POP
in each province reaches a set amount before they have any chance of
ruling the province. Many factors affect the POP, one of which is
drafting new units. New units comes directly OFF the POP point value
(depending on the prov. level), so that militaristic realms must face
the consequences of having more of their populations in garrisons and
not at home working and having families. POP points increase 1
point/domain turn. This works out, IMC, to provinces being ruled once
every 15 years or so (60 is the magic number), which makes sense when
considering that a new generation of workers (in human lands) comes of
age every 15 years or so. Demi-human and humanoid realms face different
POP threshold levels (needless to say, elven rulers face about 150 years
before they have a chance to even THINK about ruling up their
provinces).
Anyways, that's what happens in my corner of Cerilia.
Cheers,
Darren
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11-08-1998, 08:28 PM #8JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
In a message dated 11/7/98 8:59:08 PM Central Standard Time,
cgreeson@ccipost.net writes:
>
It takes like what 3-weeks time to train a modern mechanized army unit. With
the population bases all around cities an villages, a month doesn't seem
unfair of a time.
These infantry are not skilled men, they are yokles who pale in comparison to
heavily trained units (elite infantry and knights)
And as to ylvl 3 representation I wasn't saying you could raise a knight in a
lvl 4 provience, I was saying that the reasoning only one per 4lvl is faulty
because it implies that only a lvl 4 provience has nobles. Also the unit is
not just nobles, and the 6GBs help pay for the armoring, support, and raising
of the unit. The blacsmiths also can forge armor at a substatialy less cost.
The cost in the PHB is factoring in availablity and the rareity of a person
wanting to buy armor. True I don;t think the 6 GBs go in to the purchasing of
the unit.
Its all in how you look at it. No one can factor in all that it would take to
muster a unit of knights correctly. I feel the way they have it now is fine
you don't. Its a personal preference.
Oh and a good thing to stop guilder from financing regents is to have the
guild try a coup. Especially those holdings in other countries. Just because
they work for the man doesn't mean the are absolutly loyal... hey they are
theives after all.
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11-09-1998, 05:04 PM #9Pieter A de JongGuest
Limiting Knight Units (offshoot
Craig Greeson wrote:
>
campaign to better approximate RL, I probably should be). How about the
> following house rule for limiting Knights:
>
> - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
> nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population level
> of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population levels
> above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for a
> lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).
>
> - A regent who wishes to add additional Knight units beyond his realms
> normal maximum can do so. However these units cost 2X the normal muster
> cost (i.e. 12GB, rather than 6GB). They also take twice as long to form as
> what we had discussed using the "prolonged Muster" rule (i.e. 12 months,
> rather than 6). This simulates the fact that once you've exhausted your
> minor nobility as knights, additional units don't come prepared with most
> of their own equipment, and they require a great deal of training.
> Maintenance costs would still remain at 2GB.
>
> OK, how do these normal maximums work out for selected realms in Anuire?
> Avanil: 6 Knight units
> Boeruine: 6 Knights
> Ghoere: 8 Knights
> Diemed: 4 Knights
> Roesone: 1 Knight
>
> Seems reasonable to me. All you Roesone fans may not like it, but it is
> still supposed to be somewhat of a frontier realm, right? The only realm
> with military units listed in the Ruins of Empire book that seems to go
> beyond the normal maximum I propose is Alamie. And that Corilon Alam (sp?)
> is just stubborn enough to way overspend so he could add that 2nd unit of
> Knights, IMO.
I'd have problems with these numbers, as I see Avanil and Boeruine as
the
primary contenders for the throne. I would expect them to have more
noblemen and therefore more units of knights available than the evil
baron of Ghoere.
- --
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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