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  1. #1
    Craig Greeson
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > I think its a good solution which, in the abstract solves the most glaring
    > problems with troop availability. Unfortunatly, greater realism requires
    > exponentialy creater complexity. Craig's offering, while oversimplified (as
    > he admits) is functional, reasonable, do-able, and elegant. For those
    > regents with several regent-players, or lots of military activity, who would
    > rather not keep several pages of tables, and do book-keeping on
    > individualized availablity of units, this should be a good system.
    >
    > For those who are gluttons for detail, I suggest more a more complex method.
    > Take terrain type into account and set fixed limits on certain troop types
    > (esp knights and archers), and make them easier to raise, but limited by
    > their fixed availablity, so that mobilization requires falling back on the
    > less easily raised, but more numerous kinds of infantry.

    Good point regarding limiting Knights. They always seem to be overused in
    Anuire, IMO. I'm not as concerned about archers (although, if I wanted my
    campaign to better approximate RL, I probably should be). How about the
    following house rule for limiting Knights:

    - - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
    nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population level
    of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population levels
    above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for a
    lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).

    - - A regent who wishes to add additional Knight units beyond his realms
    normal maximum can do so. However these units cost 2X the normal muster
    cost (i.e. 12GB, rather than 6GB). They also take twice as long to form as
    what we had discussed using the "prolonged Muster" rule (i.e. 12 months,
    rather than 6). This simulates the fact that once you've exhausted your
    minor nobility as knights, additional units don't come prepared with most
    of their own equipment, and they require a great deal of training.
    Maintenance costs would still remain at 2GB.


    OK, how do these normal maximums work out for selected realms in Anuire?
    Avanil: 6 Knight units
    Boeruine: 6 Knights
    Ghoere: 8 Knights
    Diemed: 4 Knights
    Roesone: 1 Knight

    Seems reasonable to me. All you Roesone fans may not like it, but it is
    still supposed to be somewhat of a frontier realm, right? The only realm
    with military units listed in the Ruins of Empire book that seems to go
    beyond the normal maximum I propose is Alamie. And that Corilon Alam (sp?)
    is just stubborn enough to way overspend so he could add that 2nd unit of
    Knights, IMO.

    Comments or suggestions?

    Regards
    Craig

  2. #2
    JulesMrshn@aol.co
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    In a message dated 11/7/98 5:28:46 PM Central Standard Time,
    cgreeson@ccipost.net writes:

    >

    I don't like a rule like this. It favors the larger areas. Does Medore have
    no nobles? I think they do. A fairer rule would be to total the provience
    levels and then divide by 4. This is a little more realsitic as a Domain of
    lvl 3 still has nobles willing to fight. Or are the nobles of the lvl 4 areas
    only patriotic enough to join the fight.

    Another thing to consider, what does population have to do with nobility?
    Nothing?

    Also Re-read the description, nobles are not all that composes a knight unit.

    Also armies are usually 200 men. In a lvl 3 provience that could be about
    8,000 to 10,000 people. Are you telling me in medieval times they couldn't
    find 200 or so guys with military training and raise them in a month? It also
    wouldn't be so hard to think that the regent has a few catalogs or fighters
    and soldiers, militia men and such that could be mustered in case of war.
    I like the idea of the quick muster. after all a lvl 1 provience can only
    make 1 unit, lvl 4 makes 4. Makes a defensive war more probable the an
    offensive and contributes to the stability to borders. Also a Regent usually
    has a small amount of GBs on hand, unless they maintain a defense fund, then
    they would have some units laying in wait.

    Plus units mustered can't be used in the same action they where mustered, so
    as defensive units they are not as flexable as units already mustered.

    just a few things to think about.

    Jules

  3. #3
    Craig Greeson
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
    >
    > I don't like a rule like this. It favors the larger areas. Does Medore have
    > no nobles? I think they do. A fairer rule would be to total the provience
    > levels and then divide by 4. This is a little more realsitic as a Domain of
    > lvl 3 still has nobles willing to fight. Or are the nobles of the lvl 4 areas
    > only patriotic enough to join the fight.

    Your suggestion is certainly another reasonable way to look at limiting the
    availability of knights. My rationale in only considering level 4 or
    greater provinces when determining how many knights could be raised
    inexpensively was as follows:
    1- Knights can only be raised in level 4 or greater provinces per the BR
    Rulebook
    2- Level 3 or lower provinces are "thinly settled rural regions", again per
    the Rulebook. IMC, knights aren't just guys who can ride heavy warhorses
    and use lances. They are very wealthy people who can afford plate mail, a
    heavy warhorse, swords, lances, etc... This would cost more than 1000 gold
    pieces per knight if you use Player's Handbook prices. It seems to me only
    very wealthy provinces are going to be able to provide more than a tiny
    handful of people with this kind of wealth. They're going to be few and
    far between even in the wealthiest, most heavily settled areas. I
    definitely don't think the designers intended for a regent's 6GB to
    purchase all the equipment a unit of knights needed.
    3- A pair of lvl. 3 provinces are not nearly the same as a lvl. 6 province
    from a population standpoint. If we assume our provinces have 90% of the
    max. population listed on pg. 33 of the Rulebook, a pair of lvl. 3
    provinces would have 18,000 people, which is only 1/2 what you'd find in a
    36,000 person lvl. 6 province. As you add more people to clear and work
    the land, the wealth of the nobles in the area would increase greatly.
    4- Finally, my whole intention within my own campaign IS to make more of a
    distinction between the big realms and the more sparsely settled ones. In
    my first campaign, PC Roesone, which had less than 1/2 Ghoere's population,
    had a larger army and a multitude of knights. This was my own fault as a
    DM, of course. I let the PCs get too much wealth from adventuring and from
    the PC guilder's trade empire, and they could afford one heck of an army.
    I'm not saying smaller domains shouldn't be able to raise additional knight
    units. I just am suggesting that they should have to subsidize more of the
    costs of the very expensive armor, mounts, and weapons required by these
    units. Smaller realms (like Medoere) may certainly have the will and the
    skill to fight, but there just aren't many people with the kind of wealth
    needed to purchase their own "knightly" equipment.



    > Also armies are usually 200 men. In a lvl 3 provience that could be about
    > 8,000 to 10,000 people. Are you telling me in medieval times they couldn't
    > find 200 or so guys with military training and raise them in a month? It also
    > wouldn't be so hard to think that the regent has a few catalogs or fighters
    > and soldiers, militia men and such that could be mustered in case of war.
    > I like the idea of the quick muster. after all a lvl 1 provience can only
    > make 1 unit, lvl 4 makes 4. Makes a defensive war more probable the an
    > offensive and contributes to the stability to borders. Also a Regent usually
    > has a small amount of GBs on hand, unless they maintain a defense fund, then
    > they would have some units laying in wait.

    As a manufacturing manager, I can say from experience it's hard to put
    together any type of cohesive work unit in a month. Recruiting, training,
    finding leaders for, and supplying a sizable military unit has to be a heck
    of a job, particularly with the meager communication channels available in
    a medieval setting. I personally don't think it would be realistic to put
    together a fully functional unit in that amount of time, regardless of
    whether or not people were available who knew how to use the appropriate
    weapon type. I'm no student of military history, however, so I could be
    completely off base. Regardless, the Rulebook clearly states you can
    Muster Armies in 1 month, regardless of unit type, so that's really all the
    ammo you need to completely ignore the suggestions that were made
    earlier.

    Regards
    Craig

  4. #4
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    Craig Greeson wrote:
    > - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
    > nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population level of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population levels above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for a lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).<

    Holy Cow! This is exactly what I did! (I always liked the fact that
    Ghoere should have the most knights of all the realms of Anuire, with
    the possible exception of Boeruine and Avanil). However, I don't allow
    ANY more knight untils over the maximum. What you've got in nobility
    (province level) is what you get - other realms don't let go of their
    noble fighting men that easily (nor are Anuirean nobles that 'mercenary'
    either - they stick close to their homes).

    Moreover, I don't allow a regent to muster more than one unit/province
    level/*per year*, no matter what type they are (exception: levies and
    mercenary units; regents can hire double # of merc units per province
    level - levies are per the rules). This keeps regents from hiring
    hordes of men at a moments notice; regents much think far ahead and
    think about reinforcements and such.

    Cheers,
    Darren

  5. #5
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
    > I don't like a rule like this. It favors the larger areas. Does Medore have no nobles? I think they do. A fairer rule would be to total the provience levels and then divide by 4. This is a little more realsitic as a Domain of lvl 3 still has nobles willing to fight. Or are the nobles of the lvl 4 areas only patriotic enough to join the fight.<

    Yes, but considering that only provinces of level 4 and above are the
    only ones able to raise knight units, it makes perfect sense. So, in
    the case of Medoere, they can have one unit of knights, total (Alamier).
    On the other hand, Ghoere, with more than ~8x the population base,
    should be able to have at least 8 times more units of knights. No?

    > Another thing to consider, what does population have to do with nobility? Nothing?<

    It has everything to do with population - ESPECIALLY in a society based
    on agriculture and feudalism (even BR 'feudalism' IMO). You can only
    have so many non-productive members of society as there is excessive
    food to feed them ...

    > Also Re-read the description, nobles are not all that composes a knight unit.<

    Very true - even moreso, IMO, with the specialty knight units like
    Knights of Haelyn - there aren't all paladins IMO. Only a small
    percentages are actually paladins - the rest are just really dedicated
    (and skilled) fighters.

    > Also armies are usually 200 men. In a lvl 3 provience that could be about 8,000 to 10,000 people. <

    True, but IMC I've multiplied army and population values by ten. So,
    armies now represent ~2000 souls. The IC IMC has ~1 million people! I
    just like thinking in hordes, that's all - much more impressive and
    fantastic! This is, after all, a fantasy game! :) (Plus, I reason,
    even with the relatively few priests around, they would make SOME kind
    of beneficial impact: ie. curing plagues, healing the sick, etc.
    Priests in my game are very busy people, if that's in their god's sphere
    of influence that is (ie certainly not Belinik or Sera, for example).

    Cheers,
    Darren

  6. #6
    Sindre Berg
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    Craig Greeson wrote:

    > Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > > I think its a good solution which, in the abstract solves the most
    > glaring
    > > problems with troop availability. Unfortunatly, greater realism
    > requires
    > > exponentialy creater complexity. Craig's offering, while
    > oversimplified (as
    > > he admits) is functional, reasonable, do-able, and elegant. For
    > those
    > > regents with several regent-players, or lots of military activity,
    > who would
    > > rather not keep several pages of tables, and do book-keeping on
    > > individualized availablity of units, this should be a good system.
    > >
    > > For those who are gluttons for detail, I suggest more a more complex
    > method.
    > > Take terrain type into account and set fixed limits on certain troop
    > types
    > > (esp knights and archers), and make them easier to raise, but
    > limited by
    > > their fixed availablity, so that mobilization requires falling back
    > on the
    > > less easily raised, but more numerous kinds of infantry.
    >
    > Good point regarding limiting Knights. They always seem to be
    > overused in
    > Anuire, IMO. I'm not as concerned about archers (although, if I
    > wanted my
    > campaign to better approximate RL, I probably should be). How about
    > the
    > following house rule for limiting Knights:
    >
    > - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
    > nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population
    > level
    > of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population
    > levels
    > above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for
    > a
    > lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).
    >
    > - A regent who wishes to add additional Knight units beyond his realms
    >
    > normal maximum can do so. However these units cost 2X the normal
    > muster
    > cost (i.e. 12GB, rather than 6GB). They also take twice as long to
    > form as
    > what we had discussed using the "prolonged Muster" rule (i.e. 12
    > months,
    > rather than 6). This simulates the fact that once you've exhausted
    > your
    > minor nobility as knights, additional units don't come prepared with
    > most
    > of their own equipment, and they require a great deal of training.
    > Maintenance costs would still remain at 2GB.
    >
    > OK, how do these normal maximums work out for selected realms in
    > Anuire?
    > Avanil: 6 Knight units
    > Boeruine: 6 Knights
    > Ghoere: 8 Knights
    > Diemed: 4 Knights
    > Roesone: 1 Knight
    >
    > Seems reasonable to me. All you Roesone fans may not like it, but it
    > is
    > still supposed to be somewhat of a frontier realm, right? The only
    > realm
    > with military units listed in the Ruins of Empire book that seems to
    > go
    > beyond the normal maximum I propose is Alamie. And that Corilon Alam
    > (sp?)
    > is just stubborn enough to way overspend so he could add that 2nd unit
    > of
    > Knights, IMO.
    >
    > Comments or suggestions?
    >
    > Regards
    > Craig
    > *****
    > ************************************************** *******************
    > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    > line
    > I like it, but take a look at a bit similar house rule I made up
    regarding all unit musters... It says that every province has drafting
    level of twice it's province level. Every time a unit is raised it
    lowers the drafting level of the province one point (possibly two for
    heavy units ?). This points return after 1 year after the unit has been
    raised, that is ONE point is returned after one year. Or you could just
    rule that every new-year the drafting level goes up one point for
    simplicity, up to the max level. And there is another issue...if you
    want to raise a knight unit f. inst. you divide the drafting level by 2
    (rounded down) and check that value against the level listed in RoE
    (which is 4 for Knights if my memory holds).

    This system was invented to cancel the ilogical number of young men
    entering and army when you raised a big army. And to spread the muster
    over your entire realm. It is not intended to stop people from raising
    massive amounts of units at one time.. But possibly it could be added to
    this delayed muster rules ?...
    Any comments are welcome..

    - --
    Sindre

    Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

    www.uio.no/~sindrejb

  7. #7
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    Sindre Berg wrote:
    > I like it, but take a look at a bit similar house rule I made up
    > regarding all unit musters... It says that every province has drafting
    > level of twice it's province level. Every time a unit is raised it
    > lowers the drafting level of the province one point (possibly two for
    > heavy units ?). This points return after 1 year after the unit has been raised, that is ONE point is returned after one year. Or you could just rule that every new-year the drafting level goes up one point for
    simplicity, up to the max level.<

    I have done something like this IMC as well. I have created a POP, or
    "Population Of Province" point value. I created this more to counteract
    overuse of the rule realm action - now regents must wait until the POP
    in each province reaches a set amount before they have any chance of
    ruling the province. Many factors affect the POP, one of which is
    drafting new units. New units comes directly OFF the POP point value
    (depending on the prov. level), so that militaristic realms must face
    the consequences of having more of their populations in garrisons and
    not at home working and having families. POP points increase 1
    point/domain turn. This works out, IMC, to provinces being ruled once
    every 15 years or so (60 is the magic number), which makes sense when
    considering that a new generation of workers (in human lands) comes of
    age every 15 years or so. Demi-human and humanoid realms face different
    POP threshold levels (needless to say, elven rulers face about 150 years
    before they have a chance to even THINK about ruling up their
    provinces).

    Anyways, that's what happens in my corner of Cerilia.

    Cheers,
    Darren

  8. #8
    JulesMrshn@aol.co
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    In a message dated 11/7/98 8:59:08 PM Central Standard Time,
    cgreeson@ccipost.net writes:

    >

    It takes like what 3-weeks time to train a modern mechanized army unit. With
    the population bases all around cities an villages, a month doesn't seem
    unfair of a time.
    These infantry are not skilled men, they are yokles who pale in comparison to
    heavily trained units (elite infantry and knights)

    And as to ylvl 3 representation I wasn't saying you could raise a knight in a
    lvl 4 provience, I was saying that the reasoning only one per 4lvl is faulty
    because it implies that only a lvl 4 provience has nobles. Also the unit is
    not just nobles, and the 6GBs help pay for the armoring, support, and raising
    of the unit. The blacsmiths also can forge armor at a substatialy less cost.
    The cost in the PHB is factoring in availablity and the rareity of a person
    wanting to buy armor. True I don;t think the 6 GBs go in to the purchasing of
    the unit.

    Its all in how you look at it. No one can factor in all that it would take to
    muster a unit of knights correctly. I feel the way they have it now is fine
    you don't. Its a personal preference.

    Oh and a good thing to stop guilder from financing regents is to have the
    guild try a coup. Especially those holdings in other countries. Just because
    they work for the man doesn't mean the are absolutly loyal... hey they are
    theives after all.

  9. #9
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Limiting Knight Units (offshoot

    Craig Greeson wrote:
    >
    campaign to better approximate RL, I probably should be). How about the
    > following house rule for limiting Knights:
    >
    > - A realm can only easily support as many Knight units as its "minor
    > nobility" base permits. Each province in a domain with a population level
    > of 4 can support a single unit of Knights. For every 2 population levels
    > above 4, a province can support an additional Knight unit (i.e. 2 for a
    > lvl. 6 province, 3 for a lvl. 8 province, 4 for a lvl. 10 province).
    >
    > - A regent who wishes to add additional Knight units beyond his realms
    > normal maximum can do so. However these units cost 2X the normal muster
    > cost (i.e. 12GB, rather than 6GB). They also take twice as long to form as
    > what we had discussed using the "prolonged Muster" rule (i.e. 12 months,
    > rather than 6). This simulates the fact that once you've exhausted your
    > minor nobility as knights, additional units don't come prepared with most
    > of their own equipment, and they require a great deal of training.
    > Maintenance costs would still remain at 2GB.
    >
    > OK, how do these normal maximums work out for selected realms in Anuire?
    > Avanil: 6 Knight units
    > Boeruine: 6 Knights
    > Ghoere: 8 Knights
    > Diemed: 4 Knights
    > Roesone: 1 Knight
    >
    > Seems reasonable to me. All you Roesone fans may not like it, but it is
    > still supposed to be somewhat of a frontier realm, right? The only realm
    > with military units listed in the Ruins of Empire book that seems to go
    > beyond the normal maximum I propose is Alamie. And that Corilon Alam (sp?)
    > is just stubborn enough to way overspend so he could add that 2nd unit of
    > Knights, IMO.

    I'd have problems with these numbers, as I see Avanil and Boeruine as
    the
    primary contenders for the throne. I would expect them to have more
    noblemen and therefore more units of knights available than the evil
    baron of Ghoere.
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

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