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  1. #1
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    RPs and Real life.

    > BR was designed based on historical circumstance. As Rich Baker said
    > to me
    > in a post, "As a historian, you'll probably note that I borrowed a
    > lot of
    > the inspiration for Birthright from historical sources." Historically
    > the
    > effects of regency were assumed to exist. Their thinking was more
    > abastract, but we are playing a game, and points are required to
    > measure one
    > character's potential, versus another. Nevertheless, whatever we call
    >
    > regency in terms of its character, it existed in the middle ages, and
    > so
    > cannot be so divourced from reality that fantastic explanations are
    > required. Divine right, divine spark, the order established by God,
    > the
    > order established by the events of Deismir, all fantasy trappings for
    > a
    > historical situation.

    Far be it from me to disagree with the game designers.... ;)

    I don't think Mr. Baker's statement about using historical sources as
    inspiration quite implies that "whatever we call regency in terms of its
    character, it existed in the middle ages, and so cannot be so divorced
    from reality that fantastic explanations are required." The BR setting
    is a fantastic invention. Magic exists. Dragons exist. Elves,
    dwarves, halflings, awnsheghlien, griffons, etc. all exist. They never
    existed on earth. If BR were a historical game it would be called The
    Middle Ages and none of these things would be in the setting. In the
    real world kings and emporers supposedly ruled by divine right. In BR
    they really do.

    In a game in which the description of hit points is as vague and
    unrealistic as it is, is my description of RPs really that
    unacceptable? Many PCs can take more damage than an elephant and that's
    fine, but if I define RPs as magical energy then I'm just OUT THERE....

    Rather than restate my entire argument again, I will ask the following
    questions. If RPs have no actual energy, but are only the BR
    representation of political favors owed to a ruler then:

    Why is a bloodline required in order to collect, store, spend and
    transfer RPs? Shouldn't it be possible for any character to collect
    them if they are just a representation of political favors? In fact,
    shouldn't RPs be granted along with experience points even for
    non-rulers who might have rescued the princess, foiled the evil wizard,
    stopped the flood or healed the king? Certainly those are political
    favors that would be worthy of granting RPs?

    Why is bloodline strength the maximum amount of RPs collected in a
    domain turn? If RPs are political favors and not magical energy then
    why should the amount collected be restrained by the amount of godly
    power that a regent has?

    How do wizards collect RPs from sources whose strength is based upon the
    lack of population? What political favors are they collecting from
    their sources?

    Why can a wizard (Rogr Aglondier, for instance) use the RPs gained from
    his sources to influence his ability to create a guild holding, increase
    a province level or combat the activities of another regent attempting
    to do something similar in his domain?

    How are RPs used to increase a source holding level? How could favors
    being called due increase mystical power?

    Why are RPs tied to character class? Wouldn't a fighter running a guild
    collect just as many favors as a thief or guilder?

    How could political favors be turned into the magical energies required
    to cast a realm spell?

    How can a ruler use non-magical RPs to increase his magical bloodline
    strength, potentially gaining new magical blood abilities?

    How could RPs be transferred to a regent completely on the other side of
    Cerilia? A Khinasi guilder in Suiriene could for some reason transfer
    RPs to the White Witch who might use them to cast a realm spell. If RPs
    are favors owed a ruler, how is this possible?

    Why would RPs be transferred to a regent's heir if he died normally, but
    not if he were killed by bloodtheft? Why would RPs be transferred to a
    regent's killer if he was the last of his line and killed by
    bloodtheft? Would political favors actually be owed to a regent's
    murderer?

    Why can the political favors that RPs represent be transferred to any
    commoner off the street if that person is designated as an heir and not
    be dissipated in any way by the transfer process? Why are favors owed a
    regent transferable to someone completely unrelated to the original
    regent even if the new regent has no way of knowing what the past regent
    did in order to earn those favors or who owes them?

    I'd suggest that the easy answer to these questions is because RPs are a
    magical form of energy, collected and stored by the divine essence of a
    blooded character, consciously directed by him towards accomplishing
    certain tasks, and transferred unchanged from their mystical form to
    heirs or other regents.

    But the 64,000 gp question is: Why does this matter?!?

    Relevance! Relevance! My kingdom for some relevance!

    Well, in the present gaming situation, it doesn't matter much at all.
    I'm wondering, however, if RPs might be used in a way to increase
    ability scores, experience level, spellcasting ability, saving throws,
    etc. What if a regent wanted to back up the power of a Fireball with a
    few RPs? What if he wanted to infuse a fighting unit with divine energy
    and increase their effectiveness? I'm edging towards doing some of
    these things in my own non-BR campaign that borrows heavily from the
    Birthright regency concept when it comes to domains, rulers, etc. so I
    think these things might be useful.

    There are some potential gaming effects that RPs could be put to that
    might change the face of the game a bit and add a whole new (BR
    inspired) dimension to a 3rd edition AD&D release.... I've said several
    times that this is the kind of thing I would like to see in a possible
    3rd edition; a rewrite of the BR domain rules to make them part of the
    AD&D core rules. I think this would help revitalize the setting and get
    us some more information on my favorite published campaign world, and
    that's where I'd like to see this go....

    Gary

  2. #2
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    RPs and Real life.

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Gary V. Foss
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:41 AM
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - RPs and Real life.


    >The BR setting is a fantastic invention. Magic exists. Dragons exist.
    Elves,
    >dwarves, halflings, awnsheghlien, griffons, etc. all exist. They never
    >existed on earth. If BR were a historical game it would be called The
    >Middle Ages and none of these things would be in the setting. In the
    >real world kings and emporers supposedly ruled by divine right. In BR
    >they really do.
    >

    I contest that many of these things did exist, in the minds of
    contemporaries. Magic certainly existed, as the Hermitic tradition,
    Nostradomas, and Micheal Servatis demonstrate. Scientists were often made
    treasurer of realms because of the idea that by alchemical magic they might
    improve the royal balance sheet. Isaac Newton was probably the last so
    emploted.

    >In a game in which the description of hit points is as vague and
    >unrealistic as it is, is my description of RPs really that
    >unacceptable? Many PCs can take more damage than an elephant and that's
    >fine, but if I define RPs as magical energy then I'm just OUT THERE....
    >

    See my reply to Tim called "Loss of Regency" for clarification on this
    point. Regency may be magic, but it was assumed to exist historically too.

    >Why is a bloodline required in order to collect, store, spend and
    >transfer RPs? Shouldn't it be possible for any character to collect
    >them if they are just a representation of political favors? In fact,
    >shouldn't RPs be granted along with experience points even for
    >non-rulers who might have rescued the princess, foiled the evil wizard,
    >stopped the flood or healed the king? Certainly those are political
    >favors that would be worthy of granting RPs?
    >
    Why can't commoners rule kingdoms? How does decent from Hugh Capet, or
    Charlemagne help a royal claim? Why do the French go on about their sang
    real? What is transfered in the blood of kings?

    You seem to look at history with the eyes of a 20th century person while
    looking at BR with the eyes fantastic. I say that the 14th century was also
    fantastic and should be looked at with the same eyes. When we look to the
    Real World for ideas, we should believe the magical claims, the powers of
    priests to perform miracles, that the kings of France and England could cure
    scruffola by touch, that the devil was active in their world, and witches
    were a manefestation of that reality. Was Rudolf II OUT THERE because he
    believed in magic, and alchemy, and astrology? None of the things in BR
    were invented from whole cloth, they are taken almost completly from the
    real world, and the real world can be described very effectivly in terms of
    BR. I don't know why you insist it cannot.

    >Why is bloodline strength the maximum amount of RPs collected in a
    >domain turn? If RPs are political favors and not magical energy then
    >why should the amount collected be restrained by the amount of godly
    >power that a regent has?
    >
    Because some bloodlines are derived from Charlemagne or William the
    Conqueror, or Hugh Capet, and have in their blood the ability to rule
    kingdoms, while others are decended from Harvey Baron of Hereandthere, and
    lack that ability.

    >How do wizards collect RPs from sources whose strength is based upon the
    >lack of population? What political favors are they collecting from
    >their sources?
    >

    When you understand how God could confir upon a king the right to rule, I'll
    explain this to you.
    >
    >Why are RPs tied to character class? Wouldn't a fighter running a guild
    >collect just as many favors as a thief or guilder?
    >
    Do you give any thought to this at all? It really seems you are trying
    really hard to avoid understanding my ideas.

    >I'd suggest that the easy answer to these questions is because RPs are a
    >magical form of energy, collected and stored by the divine essence of a
    >blooded character, consciously directed by him towards accomplishing
    >certain tasks, and transferred unchanged from their mystical form to
    >heirs or other regents.


    I woud agree, and add that the same was believed in medieval Europe. But
    then it was also belived that ones conduct revealed God's favor. Why
    demistify political favors? Do the gods not smile on these? Isaac Newton
    believed God existed between the particals of matter he was describing. The
    divine was everywhere and touched everyting. If you see every action as
    miraculous and filled with divine meaning, then its not so hard to see the
    routine acts of kingship as mystical and full of divine essence.

    You will not understand what I am talking about if you insist on seeing the
    real world as being devoid of magic and divinty. The views of late 20th
    century, secular, technological people have no place in Birthright. We must
    borrow from the medieval and renaissance, including their views of magic and
    the supernatural.

    How can you say magic did not exist in the real world?

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    RPs and Real life.

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > How can you say magic did not exist in the real world?

    Huh. Well, this is a sort of quasi theological question that I really don't
    think belongs on the BR message board. Suffice it to say that I don't think
    magic exists in the real world, at least not in the ways you describe. I don't
    think real world kings actually ruled by divine right, and I don't think magic
    really existed in medieval times any more than it does (or rather doesn't) now.

    Frankly, I have to be pretty far in my cups to discuss matters of magic and
    theology in the real world, making bars my favorite churches and drunkards my
    favorite priests. I'm afraid I don't keep enough liquor in the house to engage
    in a theological debate with the regularity that I receive posts from this on
    the message board, so I'm going to have to beg off this subject.

    Good luck,
    Gary

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