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Thread: Elven Birth Control
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11-04-1998, 06:54 PM #21Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Elven Birth Control
On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> I don't think elves would really find humans all that repulsive
physically. The
> features of humans and elves are much more alike than they are
different when
> compared to goblins, orogs or even dwarves and halflings. Having
rounded ears
> rather than pointy ones wouldn't be THAT hard to deal with. I'm not
saying elves
> would have the "anything goes" esthetics of Capt. Kirk (who seemed to
find anything
> with a heartbeat erotic) but making nook-nook with a human would
probably only
> repulse those with race based prejudices strong enough to overcome the
urge to
> merge and that's pretty serious prejudice even for BR elves.
Hey Gary, how many kids do you have?
How powerful a force is "urge to merge?" Sure it can make us do some
pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
Combine that with the fact that very few elves ever leave their native
homelands to the extent that could possibility interact, much less "fall
in love/lust with" a human, and I don't think that your argument really
explains as much of the half-elf problem as you think.
Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
historically). Once you start talking about functions that are small
percentages of other functions which are small percentages of still other
functions, your explanatory power drops precipitously.
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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11-04-1998, 10:24 PM #22Gary V. FossGuest
Elven Birth Control
[[Parental Advisory Warning: Not for Children under the age of 18.]]
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> Hey Gary, how many kids do you have?
I have eleven children.... Joke! I'm joking!
I've managed to dodge that particular bullet, actually. Maybe someday when a
bunch of goblins running around sounds tolerable I'll go in for it, but not for
many years to come.... I try to avoid women who want to nest in the immediate
future, because I want a few more years of non-parenthood.
> How powerful a force is "urge to merge?"
For God's sake, man, your a biologist!
> Sure it can make us do some
> pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
> already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
Hey, I like nook-nook! I go out looking for nook-nook on a regular basis! I
grant you not as much as when I was a younger man, but I still look for
nook-nook at least as much as I play fantasy games.... That might very well be
sick, but don't go disparaging nook-nook, pal! :D
I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
ball....
> Combine that with the fact that very few elves ever leave their native
> homelands to the extent that could possibility interact, much less "fall
> in love/lust with" a human, and I don't think that your argument really
> explains as much of the half-elf problem as you think.
To quote Tina: What's love got to do with it? Heh.
Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
dance.
> Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
> outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
> married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
> historically). Once you start talking about functions that are small
> percentages of other functions which are small percentages of still other
> functions, your explanatory power drops precipitously.
Marriage? Oh, man.... Go ahead and take the fantasy out of fantasy gaming why
don't you.... :)
The point I was trying to make was that I don't think elves would be repulsed
by humans' appearance. Elven and human esthetics aren't really all that far
apart from what I can tell. There are certainly cultural differences, but
handsome/pretty seems to be close to the same thing for both races.
Given the relative fertility of the species as described in your elemental
birth control issue and the way most people seem to think elves don't reproduce
as often as humans, wouldn't that mean elven males are more likely to parent
half-elves than male humans? Half-elves mating with full elves is another
possibility, but don't we run into the same relative fertility issue again?
The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
later....
Gary
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11-04-1998, 10:56 PM #23
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Elven Birth Control
>Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
>outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
>married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
>historically)
You may be right about 70s guys...but in a medievel setting...if comparable
to our world... people weren't nearly so cautious about procreation...and
historically I think it would be more accurate to say that people tended to
get married because of procreation...the opposing view is a puritanical on
that was brought to this country by people who had the lovely courting beds
with a board down the middle so you could sleep together without having
sex...ignoring the logic that you could have sex just fine if you did it on
one side of the bed...or not even on the bed...
Just my 2 pence worth
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11-05-1998, 12:27 PM #24Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Elven Birth Control
On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> > How powerful a force is "urge to merge?"
>
> For God's sake, man, your a biologist!
Exactly, and as a biologist, I am perfectly aware that all animals, when
given the choice of an immediate opportunity to reproduce, but with a high
risk of mortality, will play it safe. They will avoid the risk. And I'm
saying that I think the situation is similar: the situation for lone elves
in human lands is about the same for lone humans in elven lands: pretty
risky. I imagine that most of the contact between the two races is in
fairly controlled conditions, either as semi-official state occasions with
ambassadors, or mixed elf-and-human adventuring groups. Both of which, it
would seem to me, would minimize (although certainly not negate) the
possibility where 1.) a chance meeting between individuals who are
attracted to each other 2.) can reasonably get together and alone for
sufficient time for reproduction to occur.
> > Sure it can make us do some
> > pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
> > already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
>
> Hey, I like nook-nook! I go out looking for nook-nook on a regular basis! I
> grant you not as much as when I was a younger man, but I still look for
> nook-nook at least as much as I play fantasy games.... That might very well be
> sick, but don't go disparaging nook-nook, pal! :D
>
> I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
> place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
> imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
> conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
> Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
> a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
> ball....
There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
party?
> Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
> aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
> would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
> dance.
Not when you consider the fact that many elven borders are "closed" to
humans, but most human borders are not closed to elves. Humans often have
to run a gauntlet like the thorny hedge/reflecting border around the
Sielwode, not to mention avoid the G.S., but there are no (or few) such
magical barriers around human lands. Plus, wierd things with time are
legendary within elven forests, which also serves as a deterence to humans
entering the elven woods.
> The point I was trying to make was that I don't think elves would be repulsed
> by humans' appearance. Elven and human esthetics aren't really all that far
> apart from what I can tell. There are certainly cultural differences, but
> handsome/pretty seems to be close to the same thing for both races.
Well I agree with you there. I don't think that they are that different
aesthetically. I just think there there are sufficient risks involved that
actually getting down to consumation (how many euphamisms can we use?) is
probably going to be pretty rare, and only under fairly unusual
circumstances.
> Given the relative fertility of the species as described in your elemental
> birth control issue and the way most people seem to think elves don't reproduce
> as often as humans, wouldn't that mean elven males are more likely to parent
> half-elves than male humans? Half-elves mating with full elves is another
> possibility, but don't we run into the same relative fertility issue again?
> The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
> seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
> Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
> later....
If you were a wizard, would you use a Charm spell to seduce a woman?
Would you ever use the "date-rape drug" to seduce a woman?
What is the difference?
Well, I'm not saying that your arguments don't have weight, in particular
your comment on males elves being more likely to have offspring with human
females. However, I do think elves are noble enough that when they do
decide to go seducing, they consider use of Charm spells cheating, and
that anyway are MUCH more likely to go seducing elven females than 1.)
going a great distance out of their way into human lands, 2.) risking life
and limb from potential human mobs when travelling w/o a protective but
inhibiting entourage.
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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11-06-1998, 07:52 PM #25Gary V. FossGuest
Elven Birth Control
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> > Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
> > aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
> > would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
> > dance.
>
> Not when you consider the fact that many elven borders are "closed" to
> humans, but most human borders are not closed to elves. Humans often have
> to run a gauntlet like the thorny hedge/reflecting border around the
> Sielwode, not to mention avoid the G.S., but there are no (or few) such
> magical barriers around human lands. Plus, wierd things with time are
> legendary within elven forests, which also serves as a deterence to humans
> entering the elven woods.
Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands. I am under
the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in the published
materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS attacks--which have
pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving in the most
repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves. When a
half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the rules, so I
don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.
> > The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
> > seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
> > Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
> > later....
>
> If you were a wizard, would you use a Charm spell to seduce a woman?
> Would you ever use the "date-rape drug" to seduce a woman?
> What is the difference?
Before I dive into this elven date rape topic let me say a few things:
1. Ew!
2. I'd like to assure the CIA guys who monitor our email that I would NEVER commit
any act violating another person's civil rights or do anything in any way illegal!
3. If I were a wizard with access to the Charm Person spell you sure as hell would
not be reading this. I'd have much better things to do with my time than talk about
using Charm Person spells. I'd be out casting Charm Person spells.... But more on
that later.
That said, using a Charm Person spell to seduce women is certainly an immoral thing
to do, but I'd suggest it is not exactly like using a date-rape drug. That's more
like using a Sleep spell. (Again: ew!) I grant you that the actual ethical
difference is pretty slim, but a chaotic neutral character would justify that a lot
easier. Especially, I think, an elf. Elves have a much more magical outlook than
humans. They are magical by nature. Casting a Charm Person spell on a human might
not be considered that outrageous a thing to do in elven society, especially with
dryads--very nature oriented creatures--doing the same thing.
In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed or they
"disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person scenario is a
kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a pretty good
explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in elf territory.
> > I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
> > place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
> > imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
> > conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
> > Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
> > a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
> > ball....
>
> There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
> what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
> for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
> party?
Hmmm. Two dozen bodyguards between me and Miss April.... I don't know, man. I
think I'd still have to take a shot at that volleyball court.
As for using Charm Person spells to seduce someone; I have far too much respect for
models/aspiring actresses whose "Turn Ons" are puppies, candlelit dinners and walks
on the beach to ever do something to violate her civil rights.
The bodyguards, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.... I'd cast spells on
those guys in a New York second.
"Say, Vinnie, why don't you and the rest of the guys go check out Hef's RPG room? I
think I saw a red dragon in there...."
"But we'z supposed to keep an eye on the goils playing volleyball..."
"That's alright... *I'll* keep an eye on the girls for a while."
"Uh, OK."
"And while you're in there I want you to smack around the Wizards/TSR guys until they
promise to start releasing all new Birthright products."
"OK. Yoose is the boss...."
"Have fun! See you later! Don't worry about the girls, I'll keep a real good eye on
them.... Helloooooo, Miss April!"
Gary
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11-07-1998, 12:00 AM #26Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Elven Birth Control
On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands.
I am under
> the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in
the published
> materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS
attacks--which have
> pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving
in the most
> repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves.
When a
> half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the
rules, so I
> don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.
Well, that wasn't the impression I got at all. Most of the descriptions of
elven realms go into great detail about how difficult it is for humans to
safely travel into and through elven lands, and I was under the impression
that they were fairly successful. But on the other hand, I supose human
obstinancy being what it is, that could just make it more likely for
humans to try to go there (in biology we call this a "sink
habitat"--organisms can be found there, they are just never able to
survive and reproduce there).
Also, being chaotic, I assume that elves get wanderlust at least as often
as humans do, and since there are no magical wards around human lands,
they can get into them far easier. Perhaps this could be due to residual
Tolkien-bias, with his elves wandering through the general countryside
even though no one ever knows that they are there.
> That said, using a Charm Person spell to seduce women is certainly an
immoral thing
> to do, but I'd suggest it is not exactly like using a date-rape drug.
That's more
> like using a Sleep spell. (Again: ew!) I grant you that the actual
ethical
> difference is pretty slim, but a chaotic neutral character would
justify that a lot
> easier. Especially, I think, an elf. Elves have a much more magical
outlook than
> humans. They are magical by nature. Casting a Charm Person spell on a
human might
> not be considered that outrageous a thing to do in elven society,
especially with
> dryads--very nature oriented creatures--doing the same thing.
OK, so once again, it comes down to fundamental differences in they way
the two of us view elven culture. Thats cool. I view them as noble but
with standards on a very personal level, so neutral but chaotic, while you
view them as chaotic but, er, well, chaotic.
(and yes, that was purposely inciteful)
> In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed
or they
> "disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person
scenario is a
> kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a
pretty good
> explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in
elf territory.
For me, those who disappear are just dead. I've never set a game
particularly close to an elven realm, so I've never had to deal with it
personally, but I suspect that if any PC's were ever to try to enter an
elven kingdon w/o permission or w/o an elven escort, I would probably make
them roll to see whether they ran into the G.S. or a member of a more
moderate patrol. If they ran into the G.S. they would be hunted w/o mercy,
while if they ran into the regular patrol, they would be arrested,
divested of all items, weapons and armour, taken to the capital where they
would be tried in court against a G.S. prosecutor, where they would have
to argue their case very well and eloquently in order to avoid becoming
daisy fertilizer (and it would be even harder if they ran into the G.S.
first and survived).
> > There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
> > what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
> > for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
> > party?
>
> Hmmm. Two dozen bodyguards between me and Miss April.... I don't
know, man. I
> think I'd still have to take a shot at that volleyball court.
Well, you're a braver man than I. Or more desperate. :)
> As for using Charm Person spells to seduce someone; I have far too much
respect for
> models/aspiring actresses whose "Turn Ons" are puppies, candlelit
dinners and walks
> on the beach to ever do something to violate her civil rights.
To borrow a phrase: Ew!
> The bodyguards, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.... I'd
cast spells on
> those guys in a New York second.
Well, granted. It almost goes without saying...
Mark
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11-07-1998, 12:44 AM #27OlesensGuest
Elven Birth Control
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> > Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands.
> I am under
> > the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in
> the published
> > materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS
> attacks--which have
> > pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving
> in the most
> > repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves.
> When a
> > half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the
> rules, so I
> > don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.
I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
feelings.
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11-07-1998, 12:51 AM #28Gary V. FossGuest
Elven Birth Control
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> OK, so once again, it comes down to fundamental differences in they way
> the two of us view elven culture. Thats cool. I view them as noble but
> with standards on a very personal level, so neutral but chaotic, while you
> view them as chaotic but, er, well, chaotic.
Well, I actually leave this up to the individual situation for the most part. I
do rule that most elves are chaotic neutral in alignment in my campaign, but
that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of chaotic good ones who would look down
on someone who would use Charm Person spells as a method of seducing humans, or
chaotic evil ones who would rather just kill them.
I tend to view the GS as being more neutral evil (like Rhoubhe who seems to be
the most zealous of the GS leaders) than chaotic neutral.
> Well, you're a braver man than I. Or more desperate. :)
There's a difference?
Gary
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11-07-1998, 01:25 AM #29Gary V. FossGuest
Elven Birth Control
Olesens wrote:
> I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
> anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
> feelings.
It's also possible that there are just a couple of more liberal elven lands
(Tuarhieval is a pretty good possibility) who tend to blend a little more
frequently than others creating more than their share of half-elves. I'm afraid
I'm not up on the attitudes of all the elven nations, so it's kind of hard to
guess which ones would spawn more half-elves than others, though Sielwode seems
pretty unlikely. Coullabhie wouldn't either except for their relationship with
Treucht which is pretty cordial.... Those are the only ones I can think of off
the top of my head.
Gary
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11-07-1998, 12:54 PM #30Pieter SleijpenGuest
Elven Birth Control
Rhuanach in the Khinasi lands has got actully humans living in their
southern provinces. They have sworn fealthy to the queen, so the elves
leave them alone. In return the humans do almost all the fighting
against the gnolls to the south in former Djira. I think this elven
realm has got the best relations with humans of all the nations on
Cerilia.
Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> Olesens wrote:
>
> > I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
> > anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
> > feelings.
>
> It's also possible that there are just a couple of more liberal elven lands
> (Tuarhieval is a pretty good possibility) who tend to blend a little more
> frequently than others creating more than their share of half-elves. I'm afraid
> I'm not up on the attitudes of all the elven nations, so it's kind of hard to
> guess which ones would spawn more half-elves than others, though Sielwode seems
> pretty unlikely. Coullabhie wouldn't either except for their relationship with
> Treucht which is pretty cordial.... Those are the only ones I can think of off
> the top of my head.
>
> Gary
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
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