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  1. #21
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > I don't think elves would really find humans all that repulsive
    physically. The
    > features of humans and elves are much more alike than they are
    different when
    > compared to goblins, orogs or even dwarves and halflings. Having
    rounded ears
    > rather than pointy ones wouldn't be THAT hard to deal with. I'm not
    saying elves
    > would have the "anything goes" esthetics of Capt. Kirk (who seemed to
    find anything
    > with a heartbeat erotic) but making nook-nook with a human would
    probably only
    > repulse those with race based prejudices strong enough to overcome the
    urge to
    > merge and that's pretty serious prejudice even for BR elves.

    Hey Gary, how many kids do you have?

    How powerful a force is "urge to merge?" Sure it can make us do some
    pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
    already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
    Combine that with the fact that very few elves ever leave their native
    homelands to the extent that could possibility interact, much less "fall
    in love/lust with" a human, and I don't think that your argument really
    explains as much of the half-elf problem as you think.

    Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
    outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
    married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
    historically). Once you start talking about functions that are small
    percentages of other functions which are small percentages of still other
    functions, your explanatory power drops precipitously.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  2. #22
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    [[Parental Advisory Warning: Not for Children under the age of 18.]]

    Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

    > Hey Gary, how many kids do you have?

    I have eleven children.... Joke! I'm joking!

    I've managed to dodge that particular bullet, actually. Maybe someday when a
    bunch of goblins running around sounds tolerable I'll go in for it, but not for
    many years to come.... I try to avoid women who want to nest in the immediate
    future, because I want a few more years of non-parenthood.

    > How powerful a force is "urge to merge?"

    For God's sake, man, your a biologist!

    > Sure it can make us do some
    > pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
    > already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."

    Hey, I like nook-nook! I go out looking for nook-nook on a regular basis! I
    grant you not as much as when I was a younger man, but I still look for
    nook-nook at least as much as I play fantasy games.... That might very well be
    sick, but don't go disparaging nook-nook, pal! :D

    I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
    place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
    imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
    conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
    Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
    a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
    ball....

    > Combine that with the fact that very few elves ever leave their native
    > homelands to the extent that could possibility interact, much less "fall
    > in love/lust with" a human, and I don't think that your argument really
    > explains as much of the half-elf problem as you think.

    To quote Tina: What's love got to do with it? Heh.

    Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
    aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
    would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
    dance.

    > Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
    > outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
    > married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
    > historically). Once you start talking about functions that are small
    > percentages of other functions which are small percentages of still other
    > functions, your explanatory power drops precipitously.

    Marriage? Oh, man.... Go ahead and take the fantasy out of fantasy gaming why
    don't you.... :)

    The point I was trying to make was that I don't think elves would be repulsed
    by humans' appearance. Elven and human esthetics aren't really all that far
    apart from what I can tell. There are certainly cultural differences, but
    handsome/pretty seems to be close to the same thing for both races.

    Given the relative fertility of the species as described in your elemental
    birth control issue and the way most people seem to think elves don't reproduce
    as often as humans, wouldn't that mean elven males are more likely to parent
    half-elves than male humans? Half-elves mating with full elves is another
    possibility, but don't we run into the same relative fertility issue again?
    The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
    seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
    Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
    later....

    Gary

  3. #23
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    Elven Birth Control

    >Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
    >outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
    >married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
    >historically)

    You may be right about 70s guys...but in a medievel setting...if comparable
    to our world... people weren't nearly so cautious about procreation...and
    historically I think it would be more accurate to say that people tended to
    get married because of procreation...the opposing view is a puritanical on
    that was brought to this country by people who had the lovely courting beds
    with a board down the middle so you could sleep together without having
    sex...ignoring the logic that you could have sex just fine if you did it on
    one side of the bed...or not even on the bed...

    Just my 2 pence worth

  4. #24
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > > How powerful a force is "urge to merge?"
    >
    > For God's sake, man, your a biologist!

    Exactly, and as a biologist, I am perfectly aware that all animals, when
    given the choice of an immediate opportunity to reproduce, but with a high
    risk of mortality, will play it safe. They will avoid the risk. And I'm
    saying that I think the situation is similar: the situation for lone elves
    in human lands is about the same for lone humans in elven lands: pretty
    risky. I imagine that most of the contact between the two races is in
    fairly controlled conditions, either as semi-official state occasions with
    ambassadors, or mixed elf-and-human adventuring groups. Both of which, it
    would seem to me, would minimize (although certainly not negate) the
    possibility where 1.) a chance meeting between individuals who are
    attracted to each other 2.) can reasonably get together and alone for
    sufficient time for reproduction to occur.

    > > Sure it can make us do some
    > > pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
    > > already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
    >
    > Hey, I like nook-nook! I go out looking for nook-nook on a regular basis! I
    > grant you not as much as when I was a younger man, but I still look for
    > nook-nook at least as much as I play fantasy games.... That might very well be
    > sick, but don't go disparaging nook-nook, pal! :D
    >
    > I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
    > place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
    > imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
    > conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
    > Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
    > a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
    > ball....

    There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
    what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
    for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
    party?

    > Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
    > aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
    > would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
    > dance.

    Not when you consider the fact that many elven borders are "closed" to
    humans, but most human borders are not closed to elves. Humans often have
    to run a gauntlet like the thorny hedge/reflecting border around the
    Sielwode, not to mention avoid the G.S., but there are no (or few) such
    magical barriers around human lands. Plus, wierd things with time are
    legendary within elven forests, which also serves as a deterence to humans
    entering the elven woods.

    > The point I was trying to make was that I don't think elves would be repulsed
    > by humans' appearance. Elven and human esthetics aren't really all that far
    > apart from what I can tell. There are certainly cultural differences, but
    > handsome/pretty seems to be close to the same thing for both races.

    Well I agree with you there. I don't think that they are that different
    aesthetically. I just think there there are sufficient risks involved that
    actually getting down to consumation (how many euphamisms can we use?) is
    probably going to be pretty rare, and only under fairly unusual
    circumstances.

    > Given the relative fertility of the species as described in your elemental
    > birth control issue and the way most people seem to think elves don't reproduce
    > as often as humans, wouldn't that mean elven males are more likely to parent
    > half-elves than male humans? Half-elves mating with full elves is another
    > possibility, but don't we run into the same relative fertility issue again?
    > The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
    > seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
    > Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
    > later....

    If you were a wizard, would you use a Charm spell to seduce a woman?
    Would you ever use the "date-rape drug" to seduce a woman?
    What is the difference?

    Well, I'm not saying that your arguments don't have weight, in particular
    your comment on males elves being more likely to have offspring with human
    females. However, I do think elves are noble enough that when they do
    decide to go seducing, they consider use of Charm spells cheating, and
    that anyway are MUCH more likely to go seducing elven females than 1.)
    going a great distance out of their way into human lands, 2.) risking life
    and limb from potential human mobs when travelling w/o a protective but
    inhibiting entourage.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  5. #25
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

    > > Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
    > > aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
    > > would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
    > > dance.
    >
    > Not when you consider the fact that many elven borders are "closed" to
    > humans, but most human borders are not closed to elves. Humans often have
    > to run a gauntlet like the thorny hedge/reflecting border around the
    > Sielwode, not to mention avoid the G.S., but there are no (or few) such
    > magical barriers around human lands. Plus, wierd things with time are
    > legendary within elven forests, which also serves as a deterence to humans
    > entering the elven woods.

    Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands. I am under
    the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in the published
    materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS attacks--which have
    pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving in the most
    repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves. When a
    half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the rules, so I
    don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.

    > > The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
    > > seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
    > > Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
    > > later....
    >
    > If you were a wizard, would you use a Charm spell to seduce a woman?
    > Would you ever use the "date-rape drug" to seduce a woman?
    > What is the difference?

    Before I dive into this elven date rape topic let me say a few things:

    1. Ew!

    2. I'd like to assure the CIA guys who monitor our email that I would NEVER commit
    any act violating another person's civil rights or do anything in any way illegal!

    3. If I were a wizard with access to the Charm Person spell you sure as hell would
    not be reading this. I'd have much better things to do with my time than talk about
    using Charm Person spells. I'd be out casting Charm Person spells.... But more on
    that later.

    That said, using a Charm Person spell to seduce women is certainly an immoral thing
    to do, but I'd suggest it is not exactly like using a date-rape drug. That's more
    like using a Sleep spell. (Again: ew!) I grant you that the actual ethical
    difference is pretty slim, but a chaotic neutral character would justify that a lot
    easier. Especially, I think, an elf. Elves have a much more magical outlook than
    humans. They are magical by nature. Casting a Charm Person spell on a human might
    not be considered that outrageous a thing to do in elven society, especially with
    dryads--very nature oriented creatures--doing the same thing.

    In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed or they
    "disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person scenario is a
    kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a pretty good
    explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in elf territory.

    > > I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
    > > place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
    > > imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
    > > conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
    > > Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
    > > a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
    > > ball....
    >
    > There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
    > what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
    > for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
    > party?

    Hmmm. Two dozen bodyguards between me and Miss April.... I don't know, man. I
    think I'd still have to take a shot at that volleyball court.

    As for using Charm Person spells to seduce someone; I have far too much respect for
    models/aspiring actresses whose "Turn Ons" are puppies, candlelit dinners and walks
    on the beach to ever do something to violate her civil rights.

    The bodyguards, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.... I'd cast spells on
    those guys in a New York second.

    "Say, Vinnie, why don't you and the rest of the guys go check out Hef's RPG room? I
    think I saw a red dragon in there...."

    "But we'z supposed to keep an eye on the goils playing volleyball..."

    "That's alright... *I'll* keep an eye on the girls for a while."

    "Uh, OK."

    "And while you're in there I want you to smack around the Wizards/TSR guys until they
    promise to start releasing all new Birthright products."

    "OK. Yoose is the boss...."

    "Have fun! See you later! Don't worry about the girls, I'll keep a real good eye on
    them.... Helloooooo, Miss April!"

    Gary

  6. #26
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands.
    I am under
    > the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in
    the published
    > materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS
    attacks--which have
    > pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving
    in the most
    > repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves.
    When a
    > half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the
    rules, so I
    > don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.

    Well, that wasn't the impression I got at all. Most of the descriptions of
    elven realms go into great detail about how difficult it is for humans to
    safely travel into and through elven lands, and I was under the impression
    that they were fairly successful. But on the other hand, I supose human
    obstinancy being what it is, that could just make it more likely for
    humans to try to go there (in biology we call this a "sink
    habitat"--organisms can be found there, they are just never able to
    survive and reproduce there).

    Also, being chaotic, I assume that elves get wanderlust at least as often
    as humans do, and since there are no magical wards around human lands,
    they can get into them far easier. Perhaps this could be due to residual
    Tolkien-bias, with his elves wandering through the general countryside
    even though no one ever knows that they are there.

    > That said, using a Charm Person spell to seduce women is certainly an
    immoral thing
    > to do, but I'd suggest it is not exactly like using a date-rape drug.
    That's more
    > like using a Sleep spell. (Again: ew!) I grant you that the actual
    ethical
    > difference is pretty slim, but a chaotic neutral character would
    justify that a lot
    > easier. Especially, I think, an elf. Elves have a much more magical
    outlook than
    > humans. They are magical by nature. Casting a Charm Person spell on a
    human might
    > not be considered that outrageous a thing to do in elven society,
    especially with
    > dryads--very nature oriented creatures--doing the same thing.

    OK, so once again, it comes down to fundamental differences in they way
    the two of us view elven culture. Thats cool. I view them as noble but
    with standards on a very personal level, so neutral but chaotic, while you
    view them as chaotic but, er, well, chaotic.

    (and yes, that was purposely inciteful)

    > In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed
    or they
    > "disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person
    scenario is a
    > kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a
    pretty good
    > explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in
    elf territory.

    For me, those who disappear are just dead. I've never set a game
    particularly close to an elven realm, so I've never had to deal with it
    personally, but I suspect that if any PC's were ever to try to enter an
    elven kingdon w/o permission or w/o an elven escort, I would probably make
    them roll to see whether they ran into the G.S. or a member of a more
    moderate patrol. If they ran into the G.S. they would be hunted w/o mercy,
    while if they ran into the regular patrol, they would be arrested,
    divested of all items, weapons and armour, taken to the capital where they
    would be tried in court against a G.S. prosecutor, where they would have
    to argue their case very well and eloquently in order to avoid becoming
    daisy fertilizer (and it would be even harder if they ran into the G.S.
    first and survived).

    > > There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
    > > what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
    > > for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
    > > party?
    >
    > Hmmm. Two dozen bodyguards between me and Miss April.... I don't
    know, man. I
    > think I'd still have to take a shot at that volleyball court.

    Well, you're a braver man than I. Or more desperate. :)

    > As for using Charm Person spells to seduce someone; I have far too much
    respect for
    > models/aspiring actresses whose "Turn Ons" are puppies, candlelit
    dinners and walks
    > on the beach to ever do something to violate her civil rights.

    To borrow a phrase: Ew!

    > The bodyguards, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.... I'd
    cast spells on
    > those guys in a New York second.

    Well, granted. It almost goes without saying...

    Mark

  7. #27
    Olesens
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

    > On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    > > Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands.
    > I am under
    > > the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in
    > the published
    > > materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS
    > attacks--which have
    > > pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving
    > in the most
    > > repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves.
    > When a
    > > half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the
    > rules, so I
    > > don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.

    I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
    anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
    feelings.

  8. #28
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

    > OK, so once again, it comes down to fundamental differences in they way
    > the two of us view elven culture. Thats cool. I view them as noble but
    > with standards on a very personal level, so neutral but chaotic, while you
    > view them as chaotic but, er, well, chaotic.

    Well, I actually leave this up to the individual situation for the most part. I
    do rule that most elves are chaotic neutral in alignment in my campaign, but
    that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of chaotic good ones who would look down
    on someone who would use Charm Person spells as a method of seducing humans, or
    chaotic evil ones who would rather just kill them.

    I tend to view the GS as being more neutral evil (like Rhoubhe who seems to be
    the most zealous of the GS leaders) than chaotic neutral.

    > Well, you're a braver man than I. Or more desperate. :)

    There's a difference?

    Gary

  9. #29
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    Olesens wrote:

    > I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
    > anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
    > feelings.

    It's also possible that there are just a couple of more liberal elven lands
    (Tuarhieval is a pretty good possibility) who tend to blend a little more
    frequently than others creating more than their share of half-elves. I'm afraid
    I'm not up on the attitudes of all the elven nations, so it's kind of hard to
    guess which ones would spawn more half-elves than others, though Sielwode seems
    pretty unlikely. Coullabhie wouldn't either except for their relationship with
    Treucht which is pretty cordial.... Those are the only ones I can think of off
    the top of my head.

    Gary

  10. #30
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Elven Birth Control

    Rhuanach in the Khinasi lands has got actully humans living in their
    southern provinces. They have sworn fealthy to the queen, so the elves
    leave them alone. In return the humans do almost all the fighting
    against the gnolls to the south in former Djira. I think this elven
    realm has got the best relations with humans of all the nations on
    Cerilia.

    Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    > Olesens wrote:
    >
    > > I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
    > > anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
    > > feelings.
    >
    > It's also possible that there are just a couple of more liberal elven lands
    > (Tuarhieval is a pretty good possibility) who tend to blend a little more
    > frequently than others creating more than their share of half-elves. I'm afraid
    > I'm not up on the attitudes of all the elven nations, so it's kind of hard to
    > guess which ones would spawn more half-elves than others, though Sielwode seems
    > pretty unlikely. Coullabhie wouldn't either except for their relationship with
    > Treucht which is pretty cordial.... Those are the only ones I can think of off
    > the top of my head.
    >
    > Gary
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

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