Elven Birth Control

[JD Lail]

>Gary Foss wrote;'

>My take on the half-elf situation, however, is that elves aren't that noble.
> Because they tend to be chaotic neutral they are just as likely to
>be naughty as nice, so taking advantage of a human female or two is probably
>not that big a deal to them.

I agree, good point!



>She's also ridiculously easy to Charm. Humans are incredibly vulnerable to the
>spell that forms the centerpoint of elven magic, especially in comparison to
>the elven 90% resistance to it. That spell alone is what makes it so easy for
>elves to kiss the girls and make them cry. According to my estimates, about
>one in fifty elves is a mage, and all of those guys and gals would have access
>to the Charm Person spell. Taking a cue from their sylvan friends, the dryads,
>why wouldn't an elf use that spell in the same way? Seduction could easily
>happen through the normal dating process, or by chasing a gal through the woods
>a la Apollo and Daphne, but the casting time of a Charm Person spell is 1
>segment. Six seconds to irresistibility? Who could resist that? It makes
>Viagra look like an aspirin.

If the elves ever wanted to dramatically increase the number of half elves this
would work just fine. Given that most of these children are going to end up
living in elven lands because of their treatment it would be a quicker way of
raising up their populations than trying to increase the elven birthrate.

IMO this could be a good plot device.

L8R

[Whalejudge@aol.co]

You also get half-elves when two half-elves have kids. Or, according to the
PHB, when an elf and a half-elf have kids.

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> OK, my life is wierd. Let me give you an example.
>
> Last night I had a wonderful time at a Holloween party. I went as the
> High Mage Aelies (Vulcan ears, Renaissaince Faire outfit, and magic wand),
> and my wife went as Marlae Roesone. We had a good time.
>
> This morning, in the shower, I was thinking. About Aelies. He's a
> half-elf. There are quite a few half-elves mentioned in the region books
> for Cerilia, certainly more than you would really imagine given the state
> of relations between the two races. I'm also a biologist, so my brain
> started working on that problem.
>
> Culturally, it doesn't seem to fit. To get a half-elf, you need a human
> and an elven parent, but the two races don't mix that much. Human
> populations tend to be strictly controlled in elven lands (Tuarhievel
> being about the least strict), but even there I wouldn't imagine there to
> be a whole lot of interspecies dalliance going on.
>
> It could be rape. It certainly happens; it's not always a nice world.
> However, it is almost certain that such cases would be human men raping
> elven women. I really don't see members of the G.S. raping human women, I
> wouldn't think they would find them any more attractive than the average
> goblin female (but I suppose everyone has their own tastes). Besides, I
> generally play all elves as extremely noble, possessing and displaying the
> traits that most knights of Haelyn only aspire to. In fact, it is very
> important to them, to maintain the standards of the great elven kingdoms
> of the past. It's just that they see humans=goblins=racial enemy,
> therefore kill, or at least keep a wary eye on. But they would no sooner
> rape a female than they would kick their mothers. It just don't seem very
> elvish to me (although there are exceptions, of course--and Rhoubhe has
> collected many of them).
>
> But we know that half-elves born into elven society are fully accepted.
> They are probably happy there, and might not feel very much like
> encountering the anger and hostility of the human half of their
> parentage. And yet, when we think of half-elves, and see them in the
> region books, they are typically among men. Which to me says that they
> were born to human mothers.
>
> Which leads me to the conclusions that there are a goodly number of elven
> men sleeping with human women in human lands. (Ok, by goodly, I don't mean
> that it's an epidemic, just slighly more common than you would really
> expect.) This does make a certain amount of sense. I can think of two
> types of human females (ok stereotypes) who would consider sleeping with
> an elf. First, bored noble ladies who are required to sit at home in the
> manor while the menfolk go out and play at bashing each other with their
> swords. I can certainly see that resentment towards their lot in life
> might make noble women want to get some of their own (esp. when their
> husbands are no doubt willing to put out for any barmaid who seems mildly
> interested). Second, peasant women. Although it certainly would not apply
> to all, I can certainly see where it might be an attractive option for a
> certain class of people with little hope for advancement any other way: a
> peasant girl might see it as a chance to get ahead: her child, after all,
> will have elven blood and therefore be able to be a true wizard.
>
> However, at this point, I run into the problem with my concept of elven
> nobility again. I cannot imagine that an elf would not know the
> consequences for the woman if she gets pregnant, and knowing those
> consequences would so blighly sleep with them. This thing of mine for
> elven nobility is not really something I can go around, either, because in
> my conception of Cerilia, the elves are really important for the big
> picture. It is only through the influence of the elves and their morality
> and nobility that humans can hope to grow beyond their medieval feudal
> social system, if they can ever learn to talk to and respect the elves,
> rather than fear and kill them. That's something not even Haelyn can do
> for them, because even though he's a god, he's still limited by his
> cultural world-view as to the way things should be. That's why, in my
> games, if there is ever going to be a new Emperor of Anuire, he or she is
> going to first have to be an Elf-friend. Because no one is going to follow
> anyone with the same old post-imperial rhetoric any more. It's going to
> have to be something new and inspiriational, that will give them the
> feeling of being lifted above their current level of understanding, so
> they see the world afresh.
>
> Which means, to me, that the elven males getting human females pregnant,
> DON'T THINK IT'S THEIR FAULT. And this implies some social and biological
> differences between the species, which struck me as interesting and fun
> while I was rinsing shampoo out of my eyes, and brings me to the topic
> which I placed in my header for this message.
>
> What if reprocuction among elves is controlled solely by the female? The
> female chooses whether she is going to get pregnant or not from a
> particular episode of intercourse. This would help explain the extremely
> low birth rate among elves (necessary to balance out their extremely long
> lifespan) and still allow plently of sex, which strikes me as fundamental
> to a vibrant, passionate elven culuture.
>
> It also explains why elven males don't feel that they are responsible for
> getting human women pregnent. As far as they know, they had no control
> over it. They probably feel extremely flattered when human women get
> pregnant, because they think that the women knew the risks, AND DECIDED TO
> GET PREGNENT ANYWAY. Most elves probably just don't realize the
> reproductive differences between the races, and it's not a subject that is
> very likely to come up at state events and ambassadorial dinner parties.
>
> A couple more tangents, and I'll close down this diatribe. I also had a
> brainstorm on how elven women do control their reproduction. Most of our
> theories of the nature of the elven race makes them very elemental. We
> have theories about elven souls decomposing into spiritual essences of the
> elements when they die (details available in the BR Netbook). Well,
> perhaps the same goes for the start of life: perhaps in order for an elven
> female to get pregnant there must be a source of all four of the elements
> present. Leave one of the elements out--blow out the candle--and you just
> don't get pregnant. The ultimate in planned parenthood: the elves must go
> through a near ritual, making sure there is a sufficient elemental source
> of all four elements before pregnancy occurs.
>
> Further, it might be possible for elven parents to influence what kind of
> personality their offspring might have. Intercourse near a large
> waterfall, with a small fire, might produce offspring with a very
> different personality than intercourse near a huge bonfire beside a small
> stream. And intercourse with a lantern, on newly turned soil in a gentle
> spring rain a personality very different again. You could start to think
> of elves with "elemental" personalities. If you need an elven NPC on the
> quick, think of a place you've been to, and imagine what sort of
> personality that might produce in a newly conceived elf. This sort of
> imaginative, off-the-cuff, intuitive approach works very well for me, but
> probably won't for everyone.
>
> Finally, I hope I haven't offended anyone with this discussion. That was
> not my intention, and if I did, then I heartily appologize. But I thought
> it was an interesting idea, and I thought I would share.

My God, Mark! Sex in AD&D?!? The sanctity of the dice are sullied for all
eternity! I'm going to have to password protect my PC now, lest some teenager
come along and read about procreation and get IDEAS from it....

I'm sure the readers on this board are mature enough to handle some sexually
oriented material.... If not, please do not read any further.

First, I like the stuff on elven birth control. I've tried similar methods in
my own love life, particularly in regard to the candles and the waterfalls.
I've found that among human females these are often more like aphrodisiacs
rather than prophylactics, but in the immortal words of Crumb "Keep on
Trucking!!!" Thematically speaking, however, I don't have any objection to the
concept you described as applied to elves. Especially since it presents the
possibility of a young elven lad penning an erotic story that begins:

Dear Treehouse Forum,
I am a young wizard apprentice in the forests of the Sielwode. I never thought
any of those stories in your magazine would happen to me, until one rainy
afternoon I answered a knock on my dorm room door and saw two of the sexiest
elven babes I'd ever laid eyes on! And were they ever drenched! Needless to
say I invited them in and...

My take on the half-elf situation, however, is that elves aren't that noble.
Oh, it's a nice interpretation, and I appreciate your use of it as the basis of
the moral system in your campaign, but to me just the existence of the Gheallie
Sidhe proves that elves aren't so nice. (Not that I want to start up that rant
again!!!) Because they tend to be chaotic neutral they are just as likely to
be naughty as nice, so taking advantage of a human female or two is probably
not that big a deal to them.

Imagine yourself an elven fighter/mage. You've been married to the same woman
for a thousand years. Things are getting... well, a little dull. One
afternoon just to get away from her nagging (like it's THAT important to pick
your dirty tights up off the bedroom floor!) you go out for a ride on your
trusty stallion. At least HE understands you. You're warhorse never asks why
you don't take him out anywhere. He never complains about the hay in his stall
or the fact that you don't introduce him to your friends. No, he's just happy
to go for a ride!

So you're riding along when suddenly you spy a human female gathering
berries.... As the Imperial Grand Wizard of the your local cel of the Gheallie
Sidhe, you really ought to kill her and stick her head on a pole as a warning
to all other humans who might think of trespassing on elven lands, but... she's
kinda cute. Nice legs. One of those filmy white, billowy peasant dresses....
Pretty hot... you know, for a human.

She's also ridiculously easy to Charm. Humans are incredibly vulnerable to the
spell that forms the centerpoint of elven magic, especially in comparison to
the elven 90% resistance to it. That spell alone is what makes it so easy for
elves to kiss the girls and make them cry. According to my estimates, about
one in fifty elves is a mage, and all of those guys and gals would have access
to the Charm Person spell. Taking a cue from their sylvan friends, the dryads,
why wouldn't an elf use that spell in the same way? Seduction could easily
happen through the normal dating process, or by chasing a gal through the woods
a la Apollo and Daphne, but the casting time of a Charm Person spell is 1
segment. Six seconds to irresistibility? Who could resist that? It makes
Viagra look like an aspirin.

In short, I think elves would be the driving force behind interracial
children. In the real world human females often created whole myths to explain
such pregnancies. Many were kidnapped by faeries and such. Such an
explanation would be much more plausible in a world where elves actually exist,
so the social implications would probably not be as unpleasant as in the real
world.

Happy camping!
Gary

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> In my dwarven campaign I associated the various noble Houses with stones
> reputed to have special properties. Elves might likewise choose to surround

I've thought a little about doing something like this, but never had PC
dwarves and so the necessity never struck (although I did create an NPC
called Rosestone whose family "crest" was Rose Quartz). Any possibility we
could entice you to share your secrets with us?

> themselves with personal elemental signs, or Houses might be associated with
> a sign. Gylvain might be known for its great fountains, its settlements
> near flowing water (esp waterfalls), and the importance of water in the home
> (the family might be offended if someone suggested opening a window or
> lighting a fire before someone had filled the table's water pitcher first),
> springs could be regarded as sacred (perhaps with benifits). Caolran might
> be noted for its appeciation of fire. I can imagine some homes have a great
> hearth which dominates the room. Or houses with a hundred candles.

Excellent ideas. I've been kicking around the idea of detailing the
"astrology of Cerilia" for awhile (partly as part of the "Imperial
Observatory" in the BR Online City Project) but have yet to have any real
inspiration good enough to spend the time developing. Perhaps this will
get me started.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:



> My take on the half-elf situation, however, is that elves aren't that noble.
> Oh, it's a nice interpretation, and I appreciate your use of it as the basis of
> the moral system in your campaign, but to me just the existence of the Gheallie
> Sidhe proves that elves aren't so nice. (Not that I want to start up that rant
> again!!!) Because they tend to be chaotic neutral they are just as likely to
> be naughty as nice, so taking advantage of a human female or two is probably
> not that big a deal to them.

Oh God, I NEVER make elves NICE. But there's a world of difference between
good and nice. (In the words of the Witch from "Into the Woods": "You're
so nice/You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice.") Some elves
are good, and deal with humans as individuals, juding each one
individually, but fully realizing that many are going to be right bastards
who would just as soon do you in a look at you. Others are evil, and lump
all humans into the stereotype "racial enemy" and hold that the only good
human is a dead human. The best of elves in human lands is suspicious,
cautious to the point of paranoia, always concerned with looking out for
his own interests, very careful about getting into a position of
indebtedness to a human (even if it is only in giving advise) because they
are in a land that is quite hostile to them. They have to look out for
their own interests, because no one else is going to look out for them.
They realize how rapidly gifts given to humans can turn into resentment
and even into vengence. The worst of the elves sees only a terrible
sickness that must be trimmed from the land whereever possible. That part
of the reason why I don't think the G.S. goes much in for rapine. They
just don't see humans as individuals, just as human don't see goblins as
individuals ("ok, I'll go after goblin #3 now"). Humans are "What is wrong
with the world" and I don't think most members of the G.S. think about
human women much longer than it takes to kill them. I think most of them
would see dalliance with a human as below them, soiling them. However,
even the G.S. is "noble" in a sense, but "nobility" can be a double-edged
sword, it can allow the continuance of social injustice and turn a deaf
ear to the suffering. The G.S. follows rules, it follows protocol, it is
just that those rules aren't those of war with equals, they are the rules
of a hunt (remember, the G.S. is the "Hunt of the Elves) for a lesser
species. You don't show mercy to your prey when you're hunting; you kill
it. You don't toy with it, you don't intentially torment it, you just kill
it. And then you go home.

> In short, I think elves would be the driving force behind interracial
> children. In the real world human females often created whole myths to explain
> such pregnancies. Many were kidnapped by faeries and such. Such an
> explanation would be much more plausible in a world where elves actually exist,
> so the social implications would probably not be as unpleasant as in the real
> world.

I don't have any problems with your view on this, and it certainly makes
sense when viewed from a different perspective than my own. However, I
happen to like my own perspective (it's the result of lots of work,
dammit! :) ), so I think I'll stick with it. Am I alone on this? I could
easily just be in my own little headspace here, in which case I'll move on
to a different topic.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> I don't have any problems with your view on this, and it certainly makes
> sense when viewed from a different perspective than my own. However, I
> happen to like my own perspective (it's the result of lots of work,
> dammit! :) ), so I think I'll stick with it. Am I alone on this? I could
> easily just be in my own little headspace here, in which case I'll move on
> to a different topic.

Hey, if it works for you thematically, then I'm all for it. It's all about theme to
me. The thing that attracted me to BR originally is that it seemed like it was a
much better interpretation of the AD&D rules that allowed for titanic stuggles
between the powers of good and evil. It gave the setting more heart and soul than
and of the other campaign settings out there which will remain
nameless....

The backstory of BR with the battle of the gods does areally good job of setting up
that struggle. Having a thematic concept in mind, like your use of elven morality,
as the basis of a long term goal for the PCs gives a point to the campaign and gives
the players something to strive for, even if they don't realize that they are
striving for it at the time.

Gary

[Tim Nutting]

Interesting stuff, Mark.

I started one reply, then it became something else (see Sidhelien Culture
thread). :)

On the nature of elven reproduction and your theories, I find them very
interesting. I would also be inclined to believe that for beings of magic,
some magic would have to be involved in reproduction.

In one book series I read, there were three planes, the Upper, Middle, and
Lower. Creatures could walk the ways in between them, if carefully, but they
could only reproduce amongst themselves when they were on their home planes.
So elves on the home of Mithgar in the Middle Plane, could only have children
is they went to the Upper Plane.

Another thing to consider is that the elves may just be incredibly infertile.
Perhaps it takes the absolute desire of both participants to create a child.
Geez, being immune to all natural disease and having that as an advantage would
certainly bring Free Love to the humans, eh?

As far as why there are so many half-elves?

Well, according to the PHB, an Elf is a person who's lineage is pure elven. As
soon as human blood is introduced to the species, the only offspring possible
ever after is half-elven or human. A Half-Elf has more elven ancestors than
human ones, and vice versa for a half elf. I don't know how much water that
holds on Cerilia, but for simplicity if counting ancestors was important, I'd
only go back 5 generations.

Perhaps the answer is that the half-elven race is breeding true...

Tim Nutting

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 11-01-1998 3:32:28 PM Central Standard Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

> In short, I think elves would be the driving force behind interracial
> children. In the real world human females often created whole myths to
> explain
> such pregnancies. Many were kidnapped by faeries and such. Such an
> explanation would be much more plausible in a world where elves actually
> exist,
> so the social implications would probably not be as unpleasant as in the
> real
> world.
>
In the words of Gheallie Sidhe General Sidhebhar, "By the Thorn Throne, there
too many of the vermin to drive them into the sea. If we can't weed them out,
we'll breed them out! Mwah hahahahaaaaa!"

(General Sidhebhar appears to have retired his post. Last seen running from a
bunch of angry male peasants with his pants caught around his ankles.)

- -DKE

[Gary V. Foss]

Tim Nutting wrote:

> As far as why there are so many half-elves?
>
> Well, according to the PHB, an Elf is a person who's lineage is pure elven. As
> soon as human blood is introduced to the species, the only offspring possible
> ever after is half-elven or human. A Half-Elf has more elven ancestors than
> human ones, and vice versa for a half elf. I don't know how much water that
> holds on Cerilia, but for simplicity if counting ancestors was important, I'd
> only go back 5 generations.
>
> Perhaps the answer is that the half-elven race is breeding true...

I've always disagreed with this description of half-elves lineage. It doesn't make
sense to me that two races who can interbreed would be so drastically influence by
the "drop of human blood" that the rules seem to say make one a half-elf. Aside
from the spectacle of racial issues--individuals with slightly more human than
elven ancestors "passing" for human--it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

In my non-BR campaign, in which technology is on the wane and magic is rising up in
its stead, there are four more "races" of half-elves. Elf-touched, 1/4, 3/4 and
human-touched. Elf touched humans have a bit of elven blood in them and only a few
powers.

Actually, the basis for the campaign and the explanation for elven blood is that
magic has begun "infecting" an earth-like planet with 20th century technology and
begun "corrupting" technology. (Actually it is Earth, but the players are going to
have to find that out in a future Planet of the Apes type revelation....)
Technical items have failed as the natural laws of magic and technology transpose.
The magical influence effects humans and animals also, changing them into
demi-humans or fantastic monsters. This makes for some cool role-playing
opportunities as it puts humans in the same position that BR elves are in and most
other AD&D settings. They are a species on the wane, fighting off the growing
numbers of non-humans who push them back year after year. The funny bit is that
because of the way magic is spread and because of their technological background
humans equate magic with radiation and the more fanatical ones refer to all
demi-humans as "mutants." It also has recently led to the spectacle of a dogfight
between a dragon and two F-16s with the PCs in the driver's seat. Now THAT was
fun....

Anyway, the point in all this (I apologize for discussing my non-BR campaign so
much, but that adventure is still fresh in my mind and it really rocked!) is that I
think there should be more than one type of half-elf. Maybe not four, the way I
have in my campaign, but I think there should be at least one step in between
human, half and full elven. The Skills and Powers text has some informaton on
"elven blood" for humans in it, which is a good starting point.

Gary

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

Actually most likely the majority of the half-elven come from elven to half-
elven marriages. Since you only need some human blood to make you half-elven.
This would account for certain transgressions to progress, suchas love between
elven and human or perhaps rapes : ( then any children resulting and any
children's children, and so on and so forth could be half-elven. And since
the half-elven tend to wander they adventure forth and go into human realms.
And one of these 2/3 elven blood halfbreeds meets a nice human women and
settles down. Theycould produce half-elven.

Also to add to the low birth rate maybe the elven women ovulate at intervals
longer then month to month.

Just a few ruminations

Jules