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  1. #1
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    Some interesting ideas, but let me share some insights from what I've read and
    used.

    From what I've read in the books, there are three great distinctions of magic
    in BR: Lesser Magic, True Magic, and Realm Magic.

    Lesser Magic is of the self and of the mind. Force of will is essentially what
    makes this magic possible. With the explanation of it provided, it makes sense
    that psionics is not in BR (at least officially). Of course, lesser magic can
    be worked by any wizard, but is especially the province of Magicians. Lesser
    magic is technically levels 1 & 2.

    True Magic has a source that is outside the normal world, but this source is
    not the mebhaighl (sp?). While the actual source is technically undefined, I
    have surmised that it is in some way tied to the "evanescence." Exactly what
    that force is, or how it works, I have not yet discovered, yet certain books in
    BR seem to indicate that it is responsible for keeping the Shadow World from
    Aebyrnis. Shaping this magic requires a bit of magic in the blood,
    traditionally, so that a human must have at least a drop of the Blood, and any
    Sidhelien or any who might be half-elven can wield it as well. True magic is
    technically levels 3 and above, excluding Illusion and Greater Divination.

    Finally there is the Realm Magic, outlined well in the books, and powered by
    the mebhaighl. The books do say that without at least the spark of divine
    blood in your system, the sheer power would literally burn a person up, no
    matter their race.

    In my own games I use the Channelers almost to exclusion. I developed an
    alternative magic system based on the Ghul Lord kit in the Al-Qadim Complete
    Sha'ir's Handbook and published on Darkstar's page as the Sorcerer.

    To distinguish the difference in the powers of Lesser and True magic, I award
    bonus spell points for levels 1 & 2 based on WIS in addition to CON. Each
    score is compared to the chart in Spells & Magic, and the magician is given the
    bonus points. For True Magic, the wizard adds his Blood Score to his available
    spell points, simulating the added endurance the divine spark bestows.

    Yes, this makes wizards and magicians all the more powerful, but I have found
    that in using this, no longer are my PCs nonchalant about facing a wizard.

    Tim Nutting

  2. #2
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    Craig Greeson wrote:
    >
    > CHANNELLERS [Channellers draw magical power from within themselves,
    > causing fatigue when low levels of magic are used and potentially
    > doing permanent harm if they overextend themselves]:
    > Mages seem to logically be Channellers. The thought they draw power
    > from within themselves rather than the mebhaighl around them helps
    > explain why their abilities are limited when compared to true wizards.

    Before using this system you should realise a few things. I play tested
    it in a few short adventures that were some events of important family
    history of the main PC's. The mages power in direct combat is reduced
    with this system. His power in times when time is not an essence his
    power is greatly enlarged. With one invisibility spell for instance he
    can make the whole party invisible at third level. The duration of this
    spell is after all 24 hours.

  3. #3
    Craig Greeson
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    Tim Nutting wrote:

    > Some interesting ideas, but let me share some insights from what I've read and
    > used.
    > True Magic has a source that is outside the normal world, but this source is
    > not the mebhaighl (sp?). While the actual source is technically undefined, I
    > have surmised that it is in some way tied to the "evanescence."

    Is the fact True Magic doesn't rely on mebhaighl something you've invented
    in you own campaign, or does this come from a BR resource? I always
    thought the Book of Magecraft (pg. 4 to be exact) was fairly clear on the
    fact mebhaighl is used in all non-priest spell casting. It definitely does
    say that a true wizard either needs to have Sidhelien blood or a
    post-Deismaar bloodline. My rationale for allowing non-blooded witches to
    cast true magic is that I wasn't really envisioning them as "casting" the
    spell. Rather, they are receiving the magic from the dark arcane power
    they've made a pact with and are simply acting as a conduit for the power's
    magical ability.

    >
    > Finally there is the Realm Magic, outlined well in the books, and powered by
    > the mebhaighl. The books do say that without at least the spark of divine
    > blood in your system, the sheer power would literally burn a person up, no
    > matter their race.
    >

    I definitely agree that non-blooded wizards should never be allowed access
    to Realm Magic.

    > In my own games I use the Channelers almost to exclusion. I developed an
    > alternative magic system based on the Ghul Lord kit in the Al-Qadim Complete
    > Sha'ir's Handbook and published on Darkstar's page as the Sorcerer.

    I just took a look at your Sorcerer subclass. Very interesting.

    > To distinguish the difference in the powers of Lesser and True magic, I award
    > bonus spell points for levels 1 & 2 based on WIS in addition to CON. Each
    > score is compared to the chart in Spells & Magic, and the magician is given the
    > bonus points. For True Magic, the wizard adds his Blood Score to his available
    > spell points, simulating the added endurance the divine spark bestows.

    Are you saying a 1st level wizard in your campaign with a bloodline score
    of 30 would have 34 spell points, rather than the 4 they would normally
    have? That seemed a bit overwhelming to me at first, but I guess you are
    using the "Channellers" alternative magic system. Because of this, casting
    spells is always going to cause at least temporary fatigue, limiting the
    wizards spell casting ability in the short term regardless of how many
    spell points he/she has.

    Thanks for the input Tim.

    Regards
    Craig

  4. #4
    Craig Greeson
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    >
    > Craig Greeson wrote:
    > >
    > > CHANNELLERS [Channellers draw magical power from within themselves,
    > > causing fatigue when low levels of magic are used and potentially
    > > doing permanent harm if they overextend themselves]:
    > > Mages seem to logically be Channellers. The thought they draw power
    > > from within themselves rather than the mebhaighl around them helps
    > > explain why their abilities are limited when compared to true wizards.
    >
    > Before using this system you should realise a few things. I play tested
    > it in a few short adventures that were some events of important family
    > history of the main PC's. The mages power in direct combat is reduced
    > with this system. His power in times when time is not an essence his
    > power is greatly enlarged. With one invisibility spell for instance he
    > can make the whole party invisible at third level. The duration of this
    > spell is after all 24 hours.

    Yes, I was concerned about your very point regarding long-lasting spells.
    In order to combat this, I was planning on tweaking the rules for
    Channeller spell point recovery. By making mages take longer when resting
    to regain their spell points, that will (hopefully) keep them from
    indiscriminately casting a number of longer duration spells prior to some
    type of encounter. I definitely want to make sure mage characters don't
    try to take a nap after each spell they cast. That's where the
    not-so-random encounter table comes in. [DM: "So, in order to rest up
    you're going to take a nap in the Gorgon's private bathroom, ehh? Let me
    roll a couple of dice here to see if anything "happens" by while you're
    sleeping....]

    You mentioned that mages power in direct combat is reduced but they can do
    more when time is not a concern if the Channeller rules are used. This, to
    some extent, is what I'm going for. I want there to be obvious differences
    in the way mages and true wizards operate, not just different spells
    available. To me, it makes sense that a true wizard, who taps into all the
    mebhaighl around him, could do a lot more in a short time period than a
    lesser mage who must scratch and claw in order to generate a magical
    effect. Of course, no player in my campaign would ever want to play a
    lesser mage, so I don't really have to worry about them being weaker than
    true wizards in "adventure" settings.

    As far as the invisibility spell goes, I never understood why it should
    last so long. IMC its duration is 1 hr./level of the caster.

    Regards
    Craig

  5. #5
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Craig Greeson wrote:

    > Is the fact True Magic doesn't rely on mebhaighl something you've invented
    > in you own campaign, or does this come from a BR resource? I always
    > thought the Book of Magecraft (pg. 4 to be exact) was fairly clear on the
    > fact mebhaighl is used in all non-priest spell casting. It definitely does
    > say that a true wizard either needs to have Sidhelien blood or a
    > post-Deismaar bloodline. My rationale for allowing non-blooded witches to
    > cast true magic is that I wasn't really envisioning them as "casting" the
    > spell. Rather, they are receiving the magic from the dark arcane power
    > they've made a pact with and are simply acting as a conduit for the power's
    > magical ability.

    I think that must be from Tim's personal vision, because I've always
    assumed that both true magic and realm magic require mebhaighl as well.
    True magic can be cast from the "ambient" levels of mebhaighl that's
    around all the time (I have toyed with the idea of having spells cast in
    the wilderness cast as if the caster was one level higher) but that realm
    spells require a direct connection to an immense supply of the stuff (i.e.
    a Source).

    And, by the way, if you're interested in Witches, I did a write-up for a
    Cerilian witch kit that is also on the Netbook.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  6. #6
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    Craig Greeson wrote:
    >
    > Yes, I was concerned about your very point regarding long-lasting
    > spells. In order to combat this, I was planning on tweaking the rules
    > for Channeller spell point recovery. By making mages take longer when
    > resting to regain their spell points, that will (hopefully) keep them
    > from indiscriminately casting a number of longer duration spells prior
    > to some type of encounter. I definitely want to make sure mage
    > characters don't try to take a nap after each spell they cast. That's
    > where the not-so-random encounter table comes in.

    The problem was not only the number of spell points, but also the
    effects of fatigue. When the mage takes care with waiting between
    casting spells, the fatigue effects could almost be ignored. I tested
    the system with a 6th lvl wizard, so for lower level mages this might
    not be hapening because they have fewer spellpoints. I would certainly
    advice against using the free-spell for double costs. If you intent the
    use of this system solely for magicians, then it might not be such a bad
    idea. It will make them somewhat more interesting to players.

    One last remark, keeping check of spellpoints, fatigue and fatigue
    effects costed a lot of paperwork and attention. While for a player this
    not that difficult, it is not that easy for DM's who have to pay
    attention to a lot more then one character.

  7. #7
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    > Is the fact True Magic doesn't rely on mebhaighl something you've invented
    > in you own campaign, or does this come from a BR resource?

    The Rulebook in the boxed set. I believe it is in the description of the
    Wizard class.

    > I just took a look at your Sorcerer subclass. Very interesting.

    I can hardly take much credit for it, though.

    > Are you saying a 1st level wizard in your campaign with a bloodline score
    > of 30 would have 34 spell points, rather than the 4 they would normally have?

    No. A 1st level wizard cannot access True Magic. These points are only
    allowed for 3rd level spells and above. As a side note, I only allow wizards
    to reach one level above with the Channeling rules.

    1st-9th level is powered by spell points

    1st & 2nd, Illusion, and Greater Divination, are allowed extra points from WIS
    & CON.

    3rd - 9th (non Illusion/G. Div) are allowed extra based on Blood Score.

    This makes wizards of prominent families very powerful, but then again, just
    how many prominent families are there? If all your players consistently have
    greater than Minor or Tainted bloodlines, then the game is being overbalanced
    by magic, IMNSHO, no offense :)

    > Thanks for the input Tim.

    np, thanks for the question.

    Game on.
    Tim Nutting

  8. #8
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    >One last remark, keeping check of spellpoints, fatigue and fatigue
    >effects costed a lot of paperwork and attention. While for a player this
    >not that difficult, it is not that easy for DM's who have to pay
    >attention to a lot more then one character.
    >
    In my experience, all of the Player's Option stuff needs to be someting the
    players do. Its way too much book keeping to manage all the paperwork for a
    DM. If the players can't do it honestly, then stick with vanilla AD&D. If
    they want to, and you trust them, it can be lots of fun.

  9. #9
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    > In my experience, all of the Player's Option stuff needs to be someting the
    > players do. Its way too much book keeping to manage all the paperwork for a
    > DM. If the players can't do it honestly, then stick with vanilla AD&D. If
    > they want to, and you trust them, it can be lots of fun.


    Ahhh, trust the players....

    A little judicious book keeping helps too. I ask my plaers for a photocopy of
    their character sheets every two months or so, just so I can keep an eye on
    what they are writing down and what they think they have, etc.

    On a side note, if you're just using Skills & Powers, the Core Rules v2.0
    should let you as DM keep a current record of what they have and don't, and the
    levels and XP, etc.

    Last, I've tried, and found that it works, to have a chart (made mine in Excel)
    that has relevant stats and saves, and stuff like HP, and SP. A simple grid
    chart with their last recorded XP cuts down on mysterious awards that you as DM
    really don't remember giving, no matter what the players say. :)

    Tim Nutting

  10. #10
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Alternative Magic Systems for B

    Tim Nutting wrote:
    >
    > > In my experience, all of the Player's Option stuff needs to be someting the
    > > players do. Its way too much book keeping to manage all the paperwork for a
    > > DM. If the players can't do it honestly, then stick with vanilla AD&D. If
    > > they want to, and you trust them, it can be lots of fun.
    >
    > Ahhh, trust the players....
    >
    > A little judicious book keeping helps too. I ask my plaers for a photocopy of
    > their character sheets every two months or so, just so I can keep an eye on
    > what they are writing down and what they think they have, etc.
    >
    > On a side note, if you're just using Skills & Powers, the Core Rules v2.0
    > should let you as DM keep a current record of what they have and don't, and the
    > levels and XP, etc.
    >
    > Last, I've tried, and found that it works, to have a chart (made mine in Excel)
    > that has relevant stats and saves, and stuff like HP, and SP. A simple grid
    > chart with their last recorded XP cuts down on mysterious awards that you as DM
    > really don't remember giving, no matter what the players say. :)
    >
    > Tim Nutting

    I just keep the character sheets with me. Not because I do not trust my
    players, but because they tend to forget them.

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