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Thread: More Bards!!!
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10-30-1998, 06:57 PM #1BenandAmyGuest
More Bards!!!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kai Beste
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - More Bards!!!
>> Further, in my games, thieves do not typically hold guilds, Guilders do.
>> Guilders are a rogue Class unique to Cerilia, and ARE specialized in the
>> large-scale operation of business interests.
>
>That's an interesting point Mark brought up. What exactly is the
>difference in mentality between guilders and thieves? I suppose
>guilders tend to legal operations and trade and are the wealthy,
>influential upper middle class (German Hanse, venice merchants,
>Marco Polo...), and are normally prepared to cooperate and form
>agreements.
>On the other hand thieves do more smuggling and black market
>business, maybe even protection rackets (though that idea might be
>too modern). They are more shadowy figures, stick to the underworld,
>and generally are a thorn in the side of any regent. They might tend
>to use browbeating before diplomacy. But then, maybe not.
>I don't think all guilds have to be held by guilders. Some of them
>might be operated by thieves (hmm... Orthien Tane maybe?). They just
>operate in other areas and use other tactics. A fighter regent could
>end up protecting a guilder from incursions from a thief. This idea
>could go a long way to fleshig out the different guilds. At the
>moment I have about 5 or 6 different guilds operating in my PC's
>realms, and I'm still looking for a way to make them distinct and
>recognisable so that the players remember them (wasn't El Hadid the
>guy who... :-).
>
>comments anybody?
>
>Kai
>
With regard to protection rackets, I don't think it fits. I mean, in
this type of society, the government IS the protection racket. I don't think
Mr. King would like Mr. Thief Gangster moving in on his turf. he he he he...
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10-30-1998, 07:54 PM #2Ryan FreireGuest
More Bards!!!
Im of the opinion that Thieves guilds often operate legit businesses.
What better way to judge if someone is wealthy than opening up a jewelry
shop (started with stolen goods) and marking your clientele.
The trade routes could be thought of as fences trading stolen goods to
other places so they cant be traced as well.
Thieves could gain regency and taxes from them in the sense of a
protection racket. pay up or else
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10-30-1998, 07:58 PM #3Ryan FreireGuest
More Bards!!!
> With regard to protection rackets, I don't think it fits. I mean,
>in this type of society, the government IS the protection racket. I
>don't think Mr. King would like Mr. Thief Gangster moving in on his
>turf. he he he he...
in the same sense mr regent doesnt like mr "guilder" setting up shop
without controls and tributes?? ;)
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10-30-1998, 08:03 PM #4Gary V. FossGuest
More Bards!!!
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> There is a WORLD of difference between saying "I think this is a weakness,
> and if you do too then here's a few corrections you can make if you choose
> to," and "This is wrong. This must be changed."
I actually thought that was what I was doing when I started this subject;
pointing out a weakness in the BR use of bards that I thought could be easily
changed. Bards should have a more prominent role in the game. That's it. I
still think that's a reasonable suggestion given the abilities of the character
class and the description of their role in the society of Anuire. The
arguments that I got in response to that scenario seemed to make it sound as if
the idea were completely untenable, so my own responses escalated quickly.
I'd like to apologize to anyone offended by my comments on this subject. I
have a very low boiling temperature when I feel I am being patronized or when I
think I'm facing inflexible attitudes. Being told to study the French
Revolution, read D.H. Fischer and quoting the Greeks seemed a rather extensive
(and a little bizarre) assault to so relatively slight a suggestion, so I
responded vehemently. I took it personally because I have studied the French
Revolution, I have read D. H. Fischer and... well, I don't have a personal
defense for my thing about the Greeks. :) Let's just say it seemed like an
application of predeterminism to AD&D. I don't buy into predeterminism in real
life, so applying it to my hobbies struck me as offensive.
What I'm trying to say is that I think there is a difference between serious
gaming and taking gaming seriously. I enjoy serious gaming. I dedicate a lot
of time to it and enjoy the hobby quite a bit. Taking gaming seriously,
however, is a big mistake. Even if it didn't take all the pleasure out of the
game... well, there are other reasons not to take gaming seriously but,
frankly, taking all the pleasure out of it is enough.
I suppose this isn't really much of an apology, but it's about all I'm going to
be able to muster in this case. I apologize for it not being an adequate
apology if that's any consolation....
Gary
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10-30-1998, 09:42 PM #5BenandAmyGuest
More Bards!!!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Freire
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - More Bards!!!
>
>> With regard to protection rackets, I don't think it fits. I mean,
>>in this type of society, the government IS the protection racket. I
>>don't think Mr. King would like Mr. Thief Gangster moving in on his
>>turf. he he he he...
>
>in the same sense mr regent doesnt like mr "guilder" setting up shop
>without controls and tributes?? ;)
>
Yeah, they're under his benevolent "protection", too!
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10-30-1998, 11:18 PM #6Ryan FreireGuest
More Bards!!!
while we're on the topic of bards, does anyone else thing bards are more
of a cross between a mage and a thief than a fighter/mage/thief
they get no exceptional strength/constitution, roll d6's for hp and cant
specialize...sounds like a regular ol thief to me
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10-30-1998, 11:34 PM #7Gary V. FossGuest
More Bards!!!
Ryan Freire wrote:
> while we're on the topic of bards, does anyone else thing bards are more
> of a cross between a mage and a thief than a fighter/mage/thief
>
> they get no exceptional strength/constitution, roll d6's for hp and cant
> specialize...sounds like a regular ol thief to me
I'd agree wih that. They get up to 6th level mage spells. That's pretty
impressive.
I don't think they should be able to do anything like cast realm spells or
anything like that, but that's much closer to the mage abilities than the
fighter ones. In fact, they don't have a lot of fighter abilities at all that
I can make out....
Gary
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10-31-1998, 12:04 AM #8Kenneth GauckGuest
More Bards!!!
>while we're on the topic of bards, does anyone else thing bards are more
>of a cross between a mage and a thief than a fighter/mage/thief
>
>they get no exceptional strength/constitution, roll d6's for hp and cant
>specialize...sounds like a regular ol thief to me
Except that a cross between a mage and thief should have weaker combat
skills than a regular rogue, and the bard is stronger, if only marginally.
I can see Gary's point that more can be done with bards in Anuire, but I
think taking away their special nature (for those of use who see each class
as distinct) is the wrong way to go. I would go in the opposite direction
and look for other functions in Anuire's society. Diplomacy, artist,
propagandist, court entertainer -- these are rich an interesting areas.
Need I point out that bards often perform all these functions? Rubens was
court painter for Mantua, the Habsburg Netherlands, and Marie d'Medici. He
furthered the Habsburg arguments as a propagandist as well. The program of
the Archdukes avoided Philipine conservatism, Erasmian oblivian to
ideological strife, and neo-classical stoicism. What the Archdukes required
was confidence and heroism in defence of the traditions which preserved
their vitality. This was part of the Catholic reassertion in the face of
Protestantism. For Maria d'Medici, Rubens showed her as a charmed figure
who, by gift of God, brought peace, prosperity, and harmony to war-torn
France. Rubens acted as a diplomat on at least five occasions, going to
England and Spain as well as making several trips to Germany. However, in
his own affairs, Rubens was dependent on friends and patrons to succure him
new commisions and appointments, not because Rubens lacked ability, but
because artists were considered fine talkers and learned men, but were not
regarded as having much sense.
In my own campaign, bards are principle advisors and diplomats, and their
role is very important. If a PC bard wanted to be a regent, I would have
abolutly no problem with it, and would allow them to play it how ever they
wanted to. But the vast majority of NPC bards will always fit the
descriptions in the CBH. It is the NPC who is ill disposed to rulership.
Players as in so many things, are the exceptional people who cut against the
grain.
From a play by a man known as the "Bard" (who was also a Tudor propagandist)
"What say you Kate? That it is not the fashion for maids in France to kiss
before they are married? Oh, Kate, we are the makers of fashion."
Henry V
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
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10-31-1998, 12:24 AM #9Pieter SleijpenGuest
More Bards!!!
> The Rulebook explanation of why bards don't have holdings runs pretty
> thin to me. They have bardic colleges (which are pretty much ignored
> in the published materials except for in the paragraph noted their
> existence in the Rulebook p14) but can't run guilds? That's a little
> tough for me to accept. Also the political role of bards in Anuire
> has been pretty much overlooked. In Rjurik lands, of course, it is
> fleshed out quite a bit, but in Anuire bards don't have the same role,
> so I don't understand the comment in the description that says
> bardic colleges will not accept people destined to rule lands or
> holdings as that would violate their "neutrality." What neutrality do
> they need to maintain? Oh, you could say they need to remain neutral
> as observers of events, but I really don't think that holds up.
> What's the point of observing if not to interpret and comment?
The Khinasi have a completely different out look on bards, in fact there
is a bard regent, who acts as the face of a secret council, also is a
spy and assassin. Then again, the Khinasi see bards as scoundrels at
best, out right criminals at worst. No known bard regent would demand
much respect from his people...
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