View Poll Results: How should we define them?

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  • Use bonuses based on being "specialists".

    0 0%
  • Use special abilities above being "specialists".

    2 28.57%
  • Use a combination of the above as inspiration.

    5 71.43%
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  1. #1
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    There has been a lot of discussion regarding this one class; the most of our time has been till now invested, though, on the one thing the class lacks the most power: its spell list.

    By focusing on that, we have failed, and I am sorry to say I believe we did, to realise that keeping with setting material we cannot increase the magicians power level to that of the wizard: while the magician does get more spells than the wizard, he is not even as powerful as he should be.

    Do not misinterpret what I say: just like Irdeggman has said, I am just convinced that the magician should have abilities that define him as a core class. Of course, this also includes its spell list, but since this is defined to some point, we should concentrate on defining other aspects of his.

    These are the options I can only consider.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Rasp, I'm having difficulty understanding your categories here. They're sort of... vague. This, I'm afraid, makes them difficult to vote on. Perhaps could you give some explanation and examples of each?

    Osprey

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    You are right the phrasing is confusing. It looks the question is shoudl they have the specialist abilties only, different abililities than those of the specialist or a combaination of the 2.


    I had voted for #2 since it said to use abilities "above" being a specialist. Which to me means the normal specialist abilties and some more, but option 3 seems redundent with it.

    IMO this is really an unnecessary poll since the 2nd ed magician had abilities beyond those of the normal specialist. Spontaneously casting any cantrips was one of them.

    What we should be focusing on is what abilities should we be giving them. Brainstorming as it were, looking for ideas that can be assembled in some sort of orderly fashion.

    So try a different thread (or just add to this one ignoring the poll) and have everyone start brainstorming for ideas that can make it a viable class. IMO relying on creating new spells isn't the way to go since before long we will end up with a compendium of house-rules spells and people will start to complain on why theirs wasn't included.

    IMO we try to stick as closely as possible to using the core rules spells and those conversions from 2nd ed BR specific spells as the baseline and then go from there. Only addinng a minimum number of new spells to avoid the issue stated above on house-rules and different opinions peole have on their own house-rules.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Some possible ideas for abilities:

    Chose any non-class skill and treat it as a class skill from now on.

    Improved spell focus (Ill and Div only) {a tird level total of +3 when combined with spell focus and greater spell focus}

    Free maximize spells for Ill and Div spells only.

    Spontaneously cast Ill and Div spells

    Improved casting of Div spells. That is the time to get time-dependent results (like Detect MAgic for instance) is lessoned by 1 round.

    Temporarily gain a class ability of another class. Could pick a type of class and then for certain number of rounds per day can use a class ability usable by a character with a class level of X (2 maybe) levels less than the magician. This ability can be taken a number of times but each time a different class must be taken and wizard/sorcerer/prestige classes are not allowed, nor is spell ability an allowed one to duplicate.

    These are mostly based on the fact that the magician is a versatile class that relies on his ability to make himself useful to others and blend in.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I suggest 4 + Int skill points per level (since they almost always have a huge Int, and they seem to be semi-dependent on their spells).

    It would be best to get 2 c-class skills as class skills instead of one.

    The rogue's Skill Mastery ability.

    Special bonuses versus Divination and Illusion.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I'm currently working on a writeup for the Magician class using a 6-level spell list, 6 skill points per level, d6 hit die, and medium BAB (since they lack direct offensive spells, it makes sense that they would be better trained in combat to compensate). Also giving them the bard's ability to ignore casting failure from light armor.

    Keep posting ideas, as this is going to take some time to redo the spell list AND write up clas features.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    OK, here's a first draft minus the 0-6th level spell list (that will take more time than I have right this moment). Download the Word file and see what you think. Assume for now that the spell list will more closely parallel the bard's (but lower level Div/Illus spells instead of Enchantment) than the wizard's.

    Keep in mind when reviewing this class that it is built to be a viable PC core class. That means it must be roughly comparable in power to other PC classes. I built it so that what it lacks in spellcasting power (compared to wizards) it makes up for in versatility and school specialization.

    I'm open to adding more choices for Magician Class Abilities, the ones written in are the only appropriate ones I could think of atm.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Overall I like it.

    Some comments:

    No hand crossbows in BR, that is why they aren't listed on the equip table. They were excluded in 2nd ed too.

    Spell progression looks awful similar to a bard's. Except a bard progresses faster at lower levels. Not sure if this is a problem or not - just looks funny.

    The way that path school specialty is written in the class table should be path school specialty +1/+2/+3, etc. This is the only difference as the levels go up and matches write ups of similar styled class abilities.

    Don't need to specifically state that the class can take craft (alchemy) since it will meet the prerequisites.

    I might drop the sp per level to 4 and instead add in a good reflex save. 2 good, 1 poor save might better reflect the class' innate ability to survive and adapt.

    Might be a good idea to drop the BAB back to poor though. The class gets essentially 5 bonus feats as it progresses which IMO starts to make it superior to the bard.

    In general the 6th level spell progression is probably the way to go. Making any appropriate Div/Ill spells lower level to fit on the list. On another note maybe a 7th level spell prgression table might be better. Would make it different than a bards and makes it easier to add 9th level Div/Ill spells in at 7th level (I have a difficult time justifying giving them 3 levels early, but 2 could work).

    Overall I think you are on to something here. Good job.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Glad you liked my Skill Mastery and Versatile suggestions (that's the name for the ability, if you want to keep it as such).

    I think the Lorewise ability should change so that it works EXACTLY like the bard's Bardic Knowledge.

    There's an error in the description of these abilities; just a typo.

    Arcane Insight says it goes up by +1 per 4 levels, but the specialty says otherwise.

    I would keep the Average BAB and high Will only, too: bit of shows that the bard is somewhere inbetween the rogue and the magician, really, without being the same as any of the two.

    Looking good... B)

  10. #10
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    No hand crossbows in BR, that is why they aren't listed on the equip table. They were excluded in 2nd ed too.
    Oops, I'll drop that out then. An aside: am I alone in thinking that short swords really work fine as simple weapons? From my own experience with them, they seemed like a pretty simple weapon to just pick up and use effectively.

    Spell progression looks awful similar to a bard's. Except a bard progresses faster at lower levels. Not sure if this is a problem or not - just looks funny.
    Ummm...are you perhaps comparing bards' Spells Known instead of spells per day? I actually cut and pasted the bard's spells per day progression onto the magician class table, then started bumping up the numbers fairly evenly. This was for the express purpose of keeping magicians similar to bards, yet with more spell-casting abilities. Considering that sorcerers get more spells per day than wizards, it should be considered an extra boost for magicians to get more spells per day than bards, AND have the versatility of more spells known (potentially, if they manage to learn them that many).

    Don't need to specifically state that the class can take craft (alchemy) since it will meet the prerequisites.
    Cool. Wasn't sure, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to be specific.

    I might drop the sp per level to 4 and instead add in a good reflex save. 2 good, 1 poor save might better reflect the class' innate ability to survive and adapt.

    Might be a good idea to drop the BAB back to poor though. The class gets essentially 5 bonus feats as it progresses which IMO starts to make it superior to the bard.
    I'm right with Rasp on this one - it keeps the Magician somewhat distinct from the bard in having only a high Will save yet still a good BAB. This is also why I didn't include other Dex-based skills like Tumble, Balance, Hide, and Move Silently - these are definitely the province of the more roguish bards, and high Reflex saves are central to that theme.

    However, what Magicians should be is highly knowledgable. The fact that they have less skill points than rogues is something of a compromise - while high Int might give them many overall skill points, I don't think this really figures in to class balance. A high Intelligence for any PC requires sacrificing something else - like life-saving hit points from Con or higher AC, Initiative, and Reflex from Dex. In other words, ability scores are largely balanced within themselves.

    In general the 6th level spell progression is probably the way to go. Making any appropriate Div/Ill spells lower level to fit on the list. On another note maybe a 7th level spell prgression table might be better. Would make it different than a bards and makes it easier to add 9th level Div/Ill spells in at 7th level (I have a difficult time justifying giving them 3 levels early, but 2 could work).
    I've been chewing on that too. I went with 6th level really because that's the bardic progression, which makes a decent parallel class. I agree that 7 levels would be ideal to include the full range of possible spells, but less levels equals more condensing - which also means a degree of compromise in accepting less-than-perfect groupings of spells of various levels from the sorcerer/wizard list.

    Overall I think you are on to something here. Good job.
    Thanks.

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