Results 1 to 10 of 15
Thread: Time and Magic, part II
-
10-25-1998, 01:59 PM #1Gary V. FossGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Another point regarding time and magic....
If one were playing an 16th or higher level mage (which are admittedly
rare--the High Mage Aelies, the Magian and the White Sorceress are the
only ones I can think of off the top of my head) couldn't s/he spend a
month creating a few simulacrums of him/herself? Such simulacrums could
be as high as 8th level in spell casting ability. (9th for the WS and
10th for the Magian.) The casting time of Simulacrum is unspecified,
but it couldn't be much more than a day could it? My reading of the
spell leads me to suspect that the only reason the spell's casting time
is special is because the caster has to take the time to form the
simulacrum out of ice or snow, which could take a while.
Aelies and the Magian would not be very effected by the aging effects of
the Limited Wish spell required to give their simulacrums level, though
the White Sorceress would probably find that spell rather taxing. Note,
however, that if she could get Aelies or some other scion with the Long
Life blood ability into a room with her, she could cast Mimic Blood
Ability (BoM 92) and gain the benefits from that person's ability for a
short time....
The point is that with a few simulacrums running around, the spell
casting ability of a wizard suddenly gets much more significant in terms
of casting spells with unlimited durations. If Aelies can get just a
few simulacrums casting Continual Light, Stoneskin, Improved Armor,
Polymorph Other, etc. for him and he could go off on his merry way and
have an essembly line of spellcasting going on at home.
Gary
-
10-25-1998, 10:02 PM #2Pieter SleijpenGuest
Time and Magic, part II
There is one problem with a simulacrum, the thing is not a perfect copy.
Letting these clones runing around unchecked will be difficult. It will
also be very dangerous to the original. The simulacrum is just as
powerfull as the original, but there is a possibility that it will have
a free will. Suddenly the Magian has got an enemy with the same powers.
That would be to frightening for people like them. For good aligned
mages there is no assurance the simulacrum will not turn to evil and
then they are responsible for unleashing a powerfull evil. Nah, that
spell is only for emergencies.
-
10-25-1998, 10:43 PM #3Gary V. FossGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> There is one problem with a simulacrum, the thing is not a perfect copy.
> Letting these clones runing around unchecked will be difficult. It will
> also be very dangerous to the original. The simulacrum is just as
> powerfull as the original, but there is a possibility that it will have
> a free will. Suddenly the Magian has got an enemy with the same powers.
> That would be to frightening for people like them. For good aligned
> mages there is no assurance the simulacrum will not turn to evil and
> then they are responsible for unleashing a powerfull evil. Nah, that
> spell is only for emergencies.
The spell description (PHB 236-7) says "At all times the simulacrum remains
under the absolute command of the wizard who created it."
I think your confusing it with the Clone spell which creates an identical copy
of the subject. Note, however, that in the Clone spell description says these
two creatures will try to kill one another or one or both of them will go
insane.
Gary
-
10-26-1998, 12:01 AM #4Pieter SleijpenGuest
Time and Magic, part II
True enough,
but that is what the wizards think that will happen, not what might
happen :-) Even nearly god like creatures who make things simular to
simulacrum, sometimes create a thing with an own will. But lets assume
the rules are right. The spell description does state that there are
bound to be differences in personality and knowledge. Though that
conflicts with the statement that the duplicate is rather zombie-like.
This means that it needs constant supervision. Like: "learn this spell
and then cast on that creature...erm did I forget to say that you had to
say what creature it should be polymorphed in". The duplicate is only of
20%-50% of the original level. Nah, this spell is hardly a problem.
Wouldn't it also be rather uncomfortable to see yourself acting as a
zombie?
-
10-26-1998, 01:24 AM #5Gary V. FossGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> True enough,
>
> but that is what the wizards think that will happen, not what might
> happen :-) Even nearly god like creatures who make things simular to
> simulacrum, sometimes create a thing with an own will. But lets assume
> the rules are right. The spell description does state that there are
> bound to be differences in personality and knowledge. Though that
> conflicts with the statement that the duplicate is rather zombie-like.
> This means that it needs constant supervision. Like: "learn this spell
> and then cast on that creature...erm did I forget to say that you had to
> say what creature it should be polymorphed in". The duplicate is only of
> 20%-50% of the original level. Nah, this spell is hardly a problem.
> Wouldn't it also be rather uncomfortable to see yourself acting as a
> zombie?
I don't think the scenario I described can be discounted as blithely as you
seem to suggest.
First, I think you should go back and reread the spell description more
carefully. A simulacrum is only zombie-like until Reincarnation and Limited
Wish are cast upon it, and the spell says quite clearly that it is under the
absolute control of the spellcaster. I can find no evidence to suggest that
"there are bound to be differences in personality and knowledge." A simulacrum
will lack all the knowledge and personality of the person duplicated, but that
does not mean it will have independent knowledge and personality. A simulacrum
is not a living creature that learns, changes and evolves. It is a magical
construct that cannot heal itself or advance in levels. It stays just the way
it was when it was created.
Second, if you want to change some aspect of the Simulacrum spell for your
campaign that is, of course, your prerogative, but I would suggest that making
a simulacrum a living creature opens up a whole new can of worms that is far
more unpleasant to deal with than the solution warrants. If a mage can breathe
life into a simulacrum, why can't he bring life back to the dead? Shouldn't he
be able to Resurrect, Raise Dead and Heal? If he can make a form made from ice
and snow live, why couldn't he do the same for rocks? Or any other non-living
item for that matter? Currently, mages can "animate" such items, but not give
them life per se. The difference may seem slight, but in gaming terms it would
create a whole new area for mages to expand into and that doesn't seem like a
good idea to me.
Aside from all that, the point I had in bringing up this subject was that a
wizard of high enough level could cast this spell and create simulacrums of
himself that could wander around casting spells with unlimited durations
literally hundreds of times. He could send them off to cast battlespells
(which I don't use, but could be a problem in other people's campaigns.) Can
you come up with a reason why he would not be able to do this?
One just occurred to me. Bloodlines. On Cerilia a mage must have elven blood
or have a bloodline in order to cast "true" magic. It is debatable whether a
Simulacrum spell would do that. Right now, I'm thinking that it would, but I
don't know if the spell duplicates special abilities, powers, etc. The
adventure at the back of the CoS Expansion features a simulacrum replacing a
blooded regent which would seem to imply that it does.
Gary
-
10-26-1998, 11:04 AM #6Pieter SleijpenGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Let me quote a piece of the spell description as given in my PHB (2nd
edition!):
"The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but
there are differences: the simulacrum has only 51% to 60% of the hit
points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there
are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect
magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum spell, as will a
true seeing spell."
To make the simulacrum a vital force (that is anything more then a
zombie) a reincarnation spell is needed and this is a priest spell. I
would rule that this will make it an individual and while it has to
obey, it will try to interpret the commands in such a way as to harm the
caster the most if it the command is against the wishes of the
simulacrum. Even with a limited wish the knowledge and personality
gained is only 40%-65% and you need the reincarnation spell for the
personality bit.
-
10-26-1998, 02:06 PM #7Gary V. FossGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> Let me quote a piece of the spell description as given in my PHB (2nd
> edition!):
>
> "The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but
> there are differences: the simulacrum has only 51% to 60% of the hit
> points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there
> are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect
> magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum spell, as will a
> true seeing spell."
>
> To make the simulacrum a vital force (that is anything more then a
> zombie) a reincarnation spell is needed and this is a priest spell. I
> would rule that this will make it an individual and while it has to
> obey, it will try to interpret the commands in such a way as to harm the
> caster the most if it the command is against the wishes of the
> simulacrum. Even with a limited wish the knowledge and personality
> gained is only 40%-65% and you need the reincarnation spell for the
> personality bit.
Reincarnation is also a 6th level wizard spell (PHB 230) which is lower level
than the Simulacrum spell.
I think the problem I'm having with your interpretation is in the next sentence
of the spell description which says "[a]t all times the simulacrum remains
under the absolute command of the wizard who created it" and my understanding
that a simulacrum is not a living, independently thinking creature with a free
will.
"Absolute command" doesn't leave much room for interpretation. By way of
comparison the Charm Person spell uses language that is much weaker than that
to describe the kind of control a wizard has over a charmed subject. A charmed
person "regards the caster as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and
protected. The spell does not enable the caster to control the charmed
creature as if it were an automaton..." (PHB 171.) A simulacrum IS an
automaton, or the fantasy game equivalent of one, at least. The Charm Person
description goes on to give examples of a charmed creature defending the
caster's life against a red dragon. If the control exerted for a simulacrum is
stronger than that, I have trouble imagining it behaving the way you suggest.
The spell description also goes on to say that a limited wish will give the
duplicate 40-65% of the personality and knowledge of the caster. I think that
accounts for the "personality differences" in the section you quoted. A
simulacrum will only have about half of the personality of the person being
duplicated. That's a long way from saying that it will develop an independent
personality, or have some sort of resentment against its creator.
In any case, if that is the interpretation you want to use for the spell, then
go right ahead. I don't think it would work with my players who are usually
bothered by taking liberties with the text that way.
Gary
-
10-26-1998, 04:21 PM #8Kenneth GauckGuest
Time and Magic, part II
It would seem that the purpose of the reincarnation spell, when used, would
transfer a living soul of some recently decesed into the simulacrum. Hence,
a pre-existing personality of a butcher, baker, or candlestick maker.
-
10-26-1998, 04:31 PM #9Pieter A de JongGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> Another point regarding time and magic....
>
> If one were playing an 16th or higher level mage (which are admittedly
> rare--the High Mage Aelies, the Magian and the White Sorceress are the
> only ones I can think of off the top of my head) couldn't s/he spend a
> month creating a few simulacrums of him/herself? Such simulacrums could
> be as high as 8th level in spell casting ability. (9th for the WS and
> 10th for the Magian.) The casting time of Simulacrum is unspecified,
> but it couldn't be much more than a day could it? My reading of the
> spell leads me to suspect that the only reason the spell's casting time
> is special is because the caster has to take the time to form the
> simulacrum out of ice or snow, which could take a while.
>
> Aelies and the Magian would not be very effected by the aging effects of
> the Limited Wish spell required to give their simulacrums level, though
> the White Sorceress would probably find that spell rather taxing. Note,
> however, that if she could get Aelies or some other scion with the Long
> Life blood ability into a room with her, she could cast Mimic Blood
> Ability (BoM 92) and gain the benefits from that person's ability for a
> short time....
>
> The point is that with a few simulacrums running around, the spell
> casting ability of a wizard suddenly gets much more significant in terms
> of casting spells with unlimited durations. If Aelies can get just a
> few simulacrums casting Continual Light, Stoneskin, Improved Armor,
> Polymorph Other, etc. for him and he could go off on his merry way and
> have an essembly line of spellcasting going on at home.
>
That's a good one Gary, I hadn't thought of it. Not to mention that
they
could be used for guards/minions who are absolutely loyal. Also, it
would
sure make any assasins job much harder!
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
-
10-26-1998, 04:38 PM #10Pieter A de JongGuest
Time and Magic, part II
Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Let me quote a piece of the spell description as given in my PHB (2nd
> edition!):
>
> "The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but
> there are differences: the simulacrum has only 51% to 60% of the hit
> points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there
> are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect
> magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum spell, as will a
> true seeing spell."
>
> To make the simulacrum a vital force (that is anything more then a
> zombie) a reincarnation spell is needed and this is a priest spell.
Unfortunately for your argument, it is also a wizard spell.
> I
> would rule that this will make it an individual and while it has to
> obey, it will try to interpret the commands in such a way as to harm the
> caster the most if it the command is against the wishes of the
> simulacrum. Even with a limited wish the knowledge and personality
> gained is only 40%-65% and you need the reincarnation spell for the
> personality bit.
So don't reincarnate it (giving it no personality) and use it as a
golem.
Golem's are very useful normally, and a spell casting golem could be
very
useful. And if it really disturbs you walking around like a zombie,
dress
it differently and put an executioners hood on it's head.
- --
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Similar Threads
-
part of forum down
By Arjan in forum Birthright.net supportReplies: 2Last Post: 09-03-2002, 05:44 PM -
Time and Magic
By Gary V. Foss in forum MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999Replies: 26Last Post: 10-29-1998, 12:04 AM -
Time and Magic -- Was "The Gorg
By Pieter Sleijpen in forum MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999Replies: 0Last Post: 10-25-1998, 10:31 AM -
My campaign Part I
By Bondman in forum MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999Replies: 0Last Post: 07-25-1998, 05:38 PM
Bookmarks