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  1. #1
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Another point regarding time and magic....

    If one were playing an 16th or higher level mage (which are admittedly
    rare--the High Mage Aelies, the Magian and the White Sorceress are the
    only ones I can think of off the top of my head) couldn't s/he spend a
    month creating a few simulacrums of him/herself? Such simulacrums could
    be as high as 8th level in spell casting ability. (9th for the WS and
    10th for the Magian.) The casting time of Simulacrum is unspecified,
    but it couldn't be much more than a day could it? My reading of the
    spell leads me to suspect that the only reason the spell's casting time
    is special is because the caster has to take the time to form the
    simulacrum out of ice or snow, which could take a while.

    Aelies and the Magian would not be very effected by the aging effects of
    the Limited Wish spell required to give their simulacrums level, though
    the White Sorceress would probably find that spell rather taxing. Note,
    however, that if she could get Aelies or some other scion with the Long
    Life blood ability into a room with her, she could cast Mimic Blood
    Ability (BoM 92) and gain the benefits from that person's ability for a
    short time....

    The point is that with a few simulacrums running around, the spell
    casting ability of a wizard suddenly gets much more significant in terms
    of casting spells with unlimited durations. If Aelies can get just a
    few simulacrums casting Continual Light, Stoneskin, Improved Armor,
    Polymorph Other, etc. for him and he could go off on his merry way and
    have an essembly line of spellcasting going on at home.

    Gary

  2. #2
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    There is one problem with a simulacrum, the thing is not a perfect copy.
    Letting these clones runing around unchecked will be difficult. It will
    also be very dangerous to the original. The simulacrum is just as
    powerfull as the original, but there is a possibility that it will have
    a free will. Suddenly the Magian has got an enemy with the same powers.
    That would be to frightening for people like them. For good aligned
    mages there is no assurance the simulacrum will not turn to evil and
    then they are responsible for unleashing a powerfull evil. Nah, that
    spell is only for emergencies.

  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

    > There is one problem with a simulacrum, the thing is not a perfect copy.
    > Letting these clones runing around unchecked will be difficult. It will
    > also be very dangerous to the original. The simulacrum is just as
    > powerfull as the original, but there is a possibility that it will have
    > a free will. Suddenly the Magian has got an enemy with the same powers.
    > That would be to frightening for people like them. For good aligned
    > mages there is no assurance the simulacrum will not turn to evil and
    > then they are responsible for unleashing a powerfull evil. Nah, that
    > spell is only for emergencies.

    The spell description (PHB 236-7) says "At all times the simulacrum remains
    under the absolute command of the wizard who created it."

    I think your confusing it with the Clone spell which creates an identical copy
    of the subject. Note, however, that in the Clone spell description says these
    two creatures will try to kill one another or one or both of them will go
    insane.

    Gary

  4. #4
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    True enough,

    but that is what the wizards think that will happen, not what might
    happen :-) Even nearly god like creatures who make things simular to
    simulacrum, sometimes create a thing with an own will. But lets assume
    the rules are right. The spell description does state that there are
    bound to be differences in personality and knowledge. Though that
    conflicts with the statement that the duplicate is rather zombie-like.
    This means that it needs constant supervision. Like: "learn this spell
    and then cast on that creature...erm did I forget to say that you had to
    say what creature it should be polymorphed in". The duplicate is only of
    20%-50% of the original level. Nah, this spell is hardly a problem.
    Wouldn't it also be rather uncomfortable to see yourself acting as a
    zombie?

  5. #5
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

    > True enough,
    >
    > but that is what the wizards think that will happen, not what might
    > happen :-) Even nearly god like creatures who make things simular to
    > simulacrum, sometimes create a thing with an own will. But lets assume
    > the rules are right. The spell description does state that there are
    > bound to be differences in personality and knowledge. Though that
    > conflicts with the statement that the duplicate is rather zombie-like.
    > This means that it needs constant supervision. Like: "learn this spell
    > and then cast on that creature...erm did I forget to say that you had to
    > say what creature it should be polymorphed in". The duplicate is only of
    > 20%-50% of the original level. Nah, this spell is hardly a problem.
    > Wouldn't it also be rather uncomfortable to see yourself acting as a
    > zombie?

    I don't think the scenario I described can be discounted as blithely as you
    seem to suggest.

    First, I think you should go back and reread the spell description more
    carefully. A simulacrum is only zombie-like until Reincarnation and Limited
    Wish are cast upon it, and the spell says quite clearly that it is under the
    absolute control of the spellcaster. I can find no evidence to suggest that
    "there are bound to be differences in personality and knowledge." A simulacrum
    will lack all the knowledge and personality of the person duplicated, but that
    does not mean it will have independent knowledge and personality. A simulacrum
    is not a living creature that learns, changes and evolves. It is a magical
    construct that cannot heal itself or advance in levels. It stays just the way
    it was when it was created.

    Second, if you want to change some aspect of the Simulacrum spell for your
    campaign that is, of course, your prerogative, but I would suggest that making
    a simulacrum a living creature opens up a whole new can of worms that is far
    more unpleasant to deal with than the solution warrants. If a mage can breathe
    life into a simulacrum, why can't he bring life back to the dead? Shouldn't he
    be able to Resurrect, Raise Dead and Heal? If he can make a form made from ice
    and snow live, why couldn't he do the same for rocks? Or any other non-living
    item for that matter? Currently, mages can "animate" such items, but not give
    them life per se. The difference may seem slight, but in gaming terms it would
    create a whole new area for mages to expand into and that doesn't seem like a
    good idea to me.

    Aside from all that, the point I had in bringing up this subject was that a
    wizard of high enough level could cast this spell and create simulacrums of
    himself that could wander around casting spells with unlimited durations
    literally hundreds of times. He could send them off to cast battlespells
    (which I don't use, but could be a problem in other people's campaigns.) Can
    you come up with a reason why he would not be able to do this?

    One just occurred to me. Bloodlines. On Cerilia a mage must have elven blood
    or have a bloodline in order to cast "true" magic. It is debatable whether a
    Simulacrum spell would do that. Right now, I'm thinking that it would, but I
    don't know if the spell duplicates special abilities, powers, etc. The
    adventure at the back of the CoS Expansion features a simulacrum replacing a
    blooded regent which would seem to imply that it does.

    Gary

  6. #6
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Let me quote a piece of the spell description as given in my PHB (2nd
    edition!):

    "The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but
    there are differences: the simulacrum has only 51% to 60% of the hit
    points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there
    are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect
    magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum spell, as will a
    true seeing spell."

    To make the simulacrum a vital force (that is anything more then a
    zombie) a reincarnation spell is needed and this is a priest spell. I
    would rule that this will make it an individual and while it has to
    obey, it will try to interpret the commands in such a way as to harm the
    caster the most if it the command is against the wishes of the
    simulacrum. Even with a limited wish the knowledge and personality
    gained is only 40%-65% and you need the reincarnation spell for the
    personality bit.

  7. #7
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

    > Let me quote a piece of the spell description as given in my PHB (2nd
    > edition!):
    >
    > "The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but
    > there are differences: the simulacrum has only 51% to 60% of the hit
    > points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there
    > are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect
    > magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum spell, as will a
    > true seeing spell."
    >
    > To make the simulacrum a vital force (that is anything more then a
    > zombie) a reincarnation spell is needed and this is a priest spell. I
    > would rule that this will make it an individual and while it has to
    > obey, it will try to interpret the commands in such a way as to harm the
    > caster the most if it the command is against the wishes of the
    > simulacrum. Even with a limited wish the knowledge and personality
    > gained is only 40%-65% and you need the reincarnation spell for the
    > personality bit.

    Reincarnation is also a 6th level wizard spell (PHB 230) which is lower level
    than the Simulacrum spell.

    I think the problem I'm having with your interpretation is in the next sentence
    of the spell description which says "[a]t all times the simulacrum remains
    under the absolute command of the wizard who created it" and my understanding
    that a simulacrum is not a living, independently thinking creature with a free
    will.

    "Absolute command" doesn't leave much room for interpretation. By way of
    comparison the Charm Person spell uses language that is much weaker than that
    to describe the kind of control a wizard has over a charmed subject. A charmed
    person "regards the caster as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and
    protected. The spell does not enable the caster to control the charmed
    creature as if it were an automaton..." (PHB 171.) A simulacrum IS an
    automaton, or the fantasy game equivalent of one, at least. The Charm Person
    description goes on to give examples of a charmed creature defending the
    caster's life against a red dragon. If the control exerted for a simulacrum is
    stronger than that, I have trouble imagining it behaving the way you suggest.

    The spell description also goes on to say that a limited wish will give the
    duplicate 40-65% of the personality and knowledge of the caster. I think that
    accounts for the "personality differences" in the section you quoted. A
    simulacrum will only have about half of the personality of the person being
    duplicated. That's a long way from saying that it will develop an independent
    personality, or have some sort of resentment against its creator.

    In any case, if that is the interpretation you want to use for the spell, then
    go right ahead. I don't think it would work with my players who are usually
    bothered by taking liberties with the text that way.

    Gary

  8. #8
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    It would seem that the purpose of the reincarnation spell, when used, would
    transfer a living soul of some recently decesed into the simulacrum. Hence,
    a pre-existing personality of a butcher, baker, or candlestick maker.

  9. #9
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    > Another point regarding time and magic....
    >
    > If one were playing an 16th or higher level mage (which are admittedly
    > rare--the High Mage Aelies, the Magian and the White Sorceress are the
    > only ones I can think of off the top of my head) couldn't s/he spend a
    > month creating a few simulacrums of him/herself? Such simulacrums could
    > be as high as 8th level in spell casting ability. (9th for the WS and
    > 10th for the Magian.) The casting time of Simulacrum is unspecified,
    > but it couldn't be much more than a day could it? My reading of the
    > spell leads me to suspect that the only reason the spell's casting time
    > is special is because the caster has to take the time to form the
    > simulacrum out of ice or snow, which could take a while.
    >
    > Aelies and the Magian would not be very effected by the aging effects of
    > the Limited Wish spell required to give their simulacrums level, though
    > the White Sorceress would probably find that spell rather taxing. Note,
    > however, that if she could get Aelies or some other scion with the Long
    > Life blood ability into a room with her, she could cast Mimic Blood
    > Ability (BoM 92) and gain the benefits from that person's ability for a
    > short time....
    >
    > The point is that with a few simulacrums running around, the spell
    > casting ability of a wizard suddenly gets much more significant in terms
    > of casting spells with unlimited durations. If Aelies can get just a
    > few simulacrums casting Continual Light, Stoneskin, Improved Armor,
    > Polymorph Other, etc. for him and he could go off on his merry way and
    > have an essembly line of spellcasting going on at home.
    >
    That's a good one Gary, I hadn't thought of it. Not to mention that
    they
    could be used for guards/minions who are absolutely loyal. Also, it
    would
    sure make any assasins job much harder!

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  10. #10
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic, part II

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    >
    > Let me quote a piece of the spell description as given in my PHB (2nd
    > edition!):
    >
    > "The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but
    > there are differences: the simulacrum has only 51% to 60% of the hit
    > points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there
    > are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect
    > magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum spell, as will a
    > true seeing spell."
    >
    > To make the simulacrum a vital force (that is anything more then a
    > zombie) a reincarnation spell is needed and this is a priest spell.
    Unfortunately for your argument, it is also a wizard spell.


    > I
    > would rule that this will make it an individual and while it has to
    > obey, it will try to interpret the commands in such a way as to harm the
    > caster the most if it the command is against the wishes of the
    > simulacrum. Even with a limited wish the knowledge and personality
    > gained is only 40%-65% and you need the reincarnation spell for the
    > personality bit.

    So don't reincarnate it (giving it no personality) and use it as a
    golem.
    Golem's are very useful normally, and a spell casting golem could be
    very
    useful. And if it really disturbs you walking around like a zombie,
    dress
    it differently and put an executioners hood on it's head.

    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

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