Time and Magic, part II

[Gary V. Foss]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> It would seem that the purpose of the reincarnation spell, when used, would
> transfer a living soul of some recently decesed into the simulacrum. Hence,
> a pre-existing personality of a butcher, baker, or candlestick maker.

I don't think the use of Reincarnation is supposed to transfer a soul in from
some other source. If this were the case, why would the simulacrum have its
memories and experience level based upon the creature duplicated? If
Reincarnation put the soul of a butcher, baker or candlestick maker into the
body of the simulacrum it would have that person's memories and abilities, not
those of the person duplicated. It would also make the simulacrum a living
creature, which I don't believe is the intention of the spell description.

Arrgh! How did I get myself dragged into this rules-lawyering session?!? Look,
the spell description doesn't support your premise that a simulacrum would think
on it's own, act in defiance of its creator, and do everything in its power to
twist his commands around. As a DM, if you want to rule that way then fine! Go
to it. All I can say is that if I ruled that way in one of my campaigns I would
probably face open revolt on the part of my players, and since they are friends
of mine, I try not to stomp on their ideas with so much zeal. I wouldn't
appreciate it if I was playing in one of their campaigns, so I try not to do it
when they play in mine.

Gary

[Pieter Sleijpen]

You are right that this has turned into a munchkin rules discusion and
this will be my final reply about this spell.

I concider your arguments sound and have read the spell description
again. I must say it is rather vague, but I do think the reincarnation
spell gets a soul from somewhere and that might be a part of the soul of
the creature duplicated. You still need a limited wish for the knowledge
bit, so that might explain why the soul of butcher knows what the
duplicated creature knows. We do agree that the spell is rather useless
without the above mentioned two spells, don't we? Except maybe as a very
good decoy against assassins. It is also interesting to notice that the
thing is detecteble with a detect magic, would your players object that
the thing can be dispeled with a dispel magic? Afterall, assassin will
be armed with detect magic and dispel magic spells after a few failed
attempts. As for the absolute control: so are summoned elementals or
freed efreeti and they still give some strange interpretations to
certain commands and wishes.

[Kenneth Gauck]

Gary, are we reading the same spell discription? The process described on
p. 186 of the PHB clearly describes a three spell process. The Simulacrum
spell creates the form, but the form is empty, "a zombie-like creature".
The PHB then states, "A reincarnation must be used to give the duplicate a
life force." From where does this life force come from? Turning to the
spell reincarnation, it seems clear that it is drawn from some dead person.
Perhaps a baker. Soul does not include memories. Since the vital force is
drawn into a simulacrum, that spell takes precedence in some details.
Notably, the form of the reincarnated soul is the simulacrum, not a bluejay.
The third step in creation is the limited wish, which grants the duplicate
the fraction of knowledge and personality derived from the original. The
spell specifically states that personality differences exist. The limited
wish granted 40-65% of the personality of the original, but the remainder is
derived from the vital force (the soul) taken by the reincarnation spell. A
close reading reveals this.

Atempting to use the Simulacrum alone without the other two steps is nothing
more than a fancy animate dead spell [except that the false form is created
not a corpse].

Spell casting Simulacrum's would require all three steps, since memories
could not be stored in an what amounts to an animant pile of snow disguised
by illusion.

To answer your question directly, it is the limited wish which gives the
simulacrum its memories.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:33 AM


>I don't think the use of Reincarnation is supposed to transfer a soul in
from
>some other source. If this were the case, why would the simulacrum have
its
>memories and experience level based upon the creature duplicated? If
>Reincarnation put the soul of a butcher, baker or candlestick maker into
the
>body of the simulacrum it would have that person's memories and abilities,
not
>those of the person duplicated

[BenandAmy]

>Turning to the
>spell reincarnation, it seems clear that it is drawn from some dead person.
>Perhaps a baker. Soul does not include memories. Since the vital force is
>drawn into a simulacrum, that spell takes precedence in some details.
>Notably, the form of the reincarnated soul is the simulacrum, not a
bluejay.
>The third step in creation is the limited wish, which grants the duplicate
>the fraction of knowledge and personality derived from the original. The
>spell specifically states that personality differences exist. The limited
>wish granted 40-65% of the personality of the original, but the remainder
is
>derived from the vital force (the soul) taken by the reincarnation spell.
A
>close reading reveals this.



Hmmmmm... So a soul of a dead person retains it's personality, but not it's
memories. AAAAHHHHH... The metaphysics of spellcraft! he he

[Kenneth Gauck]

This concept is called Karma. It is fundamental to much Asian thinking, and
is the basis of the most advanced of the three theories of reincarnation.
Irregardless of one's belief in reincarnation in real life, it works in the
game, and this is as plausible a way to deal with it as any other.

- -----Original Message-----
From: BenandAmy
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 7:33 PM


>Hmmmmm... So a soul of a dead person retains it's personality, but not
it's
>memories. AAAAHHHHH... The metaphysics of spellcraft! he he
>