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  1. #1
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Hey Folks,

    Since I didn't want to see this topic die out, I'm starting work on a revised Magician spell list. For now this will be built on the following guidelines:

    1. Magicians will progress in spells per day and spell levels as if they were specialist wizards in divination and illusion (1 bonus illusion or divination spell per day).

    2. Evocation is a prohibited school above 2nd level, and any elemental and offensivve spells are eliminated at all levels.

    3. Magicians will have full access to Illusion and Divination spells through all levels (0-9th level).

    4. Other schools available, though probably not as low level as wizards, will include Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Necromancy, and Transmutation. Here I'll use my own judgement, eliminating most offensive conjuration and necromancy spells.

    A big question I have here concerns Summoning spells: should Magicians be capable of casting Summon Monster, or should we limit them to Shadow Conjuration? Planar Binding should remain the province of true magic IMO, but summoning raises a sticky issue. Personally, I'd prefer to eliminate Summon Monster from the Magician spell list, at least beyond 2nd level, but I was curious since bards also get these spells.

    Speaking of Bards, I would consider them to be the real masters of Enchantment magics; as such, Magician enchantment spells will be higher level than their mage/bard equivalents, and the most potent ones will be out of their reach.

    Any constructive suggestions here would be helpful.

    Osprey

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    OK, so here's the 1st Draft as a Word file: see what you think, this is definitely open to additions and revisions as necessary.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  3. #3
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I will have to disagree when it comes to the matter of Evocation: the meaning of the school is to produce more (or anything) out of little (or nothing); thus, some spells are not exactly "unsuitable" for the magician... Not to mention that some pretty important damaging spells are Evo - 1/2 for the wizard.

    Note that nature controlling, major destruction, and elemental spells are not included in the following list.

    Examples:
    Daylight
    Leomund's Tiny Hut
    Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
    Sending
    Wall of Force
    Contingency

    I know some of you will disagree with me but, please, you must realise that if magicians are underpowered, then what are we to do? Most spells were balanced out, with magic weapon spells lasting longer but the greater being more difficult in granting an enhancement now that DR is not based on it, ability-boosting spells granting a flat bonus for only a little, and so on.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Sep 5 2004, 01:37 PM
    I will have to disagree when it comes to the matter of Evocation: the meaning of the school is to produce more (or anything) out of little (or nothing); thus, some spells are not exactly "unsuitable" for the magician... Not to mention that some pretty important damaging spells are Evo - 1/2 for the wizard.


    I know some of you will disagree with me but, please, you must realise that if magicians are underpowered, then what are we to do? Most spells were balanced out, with magic weapon spells lasting longer but the greater being more difficult in granting an enhancement now that DR is not based on it, ability-boosting spells granting a flat bonus for only a little, and so on.
    Yeah I noticed that too, about the evoc spells.

    Osprey you had previously posted that evoc spells greater than 1/2 shouldn't be allowed and yet you dropped all of the 1/2 except for 1 (if I counted correctly).

    Magic Missile is a pretty much standard arcane spell for a wizard-type class. Perhaps making it (and the other ones) a level higher might make it more palatibel, but dropping it entirely is not very good for the class, IMO.

    I also noticed the tendency to include planer spells here and ethereal and shadow travel type of spells. I'm not sure they really add anything except a number to the spell list. Transporting via ethereal takes a character into the shadow world in an unpredictable manner. While it makes sense for a magician to have shadow access spells I wouldn't rely on them to fill in the needed spell slots.

    I also noticed a number of "new" spells not previously mentioned and was wondering about them. They seem OK based on the brief abbreviation, but again I wouldn't rely on "new" spells to fill in the slots. And IMO they should be added to some other casters list too.

    Regardless of what spells are decided on the magician class is going to require some high class level abilities in order to balance it out since it lacks the spell list of a wizard. I think that these class abilities are going to be the key to balancing out this class.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    1st, a general note: this WAS meant to be a 1st [rough] draft - I did it partly to evoke comments and constructive thinking on the subject, as there weren't any more comments on specifics for the spell lists.

    I will have to disagree when it comes to the matter of Evocation: the meaning of the school is to produce more (or anything) out of little (or nothing); thus, some spells are not exactly "unsuitable" for the magician... Not to mention that some pretty important damaging spells are Evo - 1/2 for the wizard.

    Note that nature controlling, major destruction, and elemental spells are not included in the following list.

    Examples:
    Daylight
    Leomund's Tiny Hut
    Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
    Sending
    Wall of Force
    Contingency
    I consider Resilient Sphere and Wall of Force to be rather dramatic force effects; even if they're not damaging, they hardly seem the "subtle" arts of the lesser path. Tiny Hut, while totally utilitarian, is still a rather dramatic and blatant force effect - these sorts of magic just seem to me more appropriate to the feel of true magic rather than the subtler arts of the magician. For dramatic effects, the magician must rely on the illusion of true magic, rather than the real thing.

    I agree about Daylight, no problems adding that one on. Straight up missed Contigency and Sending, two spells I'd have no problem adding to the list.

    Magic Missile is a pretty much standard arcane spell for a wizard-type class. Perhaps making it (and the other ones) a level higher might make it more palatibel, but dropping it entirely is not very good for the class, IMO.
    Yeah, I debated alot on this one - I avoided it for the same reasons as above, which is it's a dramatic force effect that seems as blatant as any elemental spells. Useful is very much in how things are played - a magician's usefulness shouldn't be like a combat mage: there to provide ranged magical firepower as sorcerers and wizards tend to do in D&D. If spells like Magic Missile are the stock and trade of true mages, then it makes a lot of sense that Magicians wouldn't be most suited to such effects. Bards have no low-level attack spells, yet I think they do just fine so long as they're willing to play a more indirect role.

    See, I was taking the tack of dropping the elemental and force spells from all levels in order to compensate for the fact that the magician's spell list was no longer exclusive to illusion and divination above 2nd level. Along the line of wizard specialists, evocation seemed the one school most directly opposed to the lesser path, and hence the most likely to be a banned school. However, I agree certain spells like Daylight, Sending, and Contingency seem very appropriate, so perhaps the better rule is generally, no evocation, but certain exceptions are appropriate.

    Finally, if Use Magic Device remains a class skill for Magicians, they have the option of using any type of magic item, including true magic and divine magic. This one class skill expands the Magician's potential quite a bit, so long as there are some items available to be used in the first place...

    I also noticed the tendency to include planer spells here and ethereal and shadow travel type of spells. I'm not sure they really add anything except a number to the spell list. Transporting via ethereal takes a character into the shadow world in an unpredictable manner. While it makes sense for a magician to have shadow access spells I wouldn't rely on them to fill in the needed spell slots.
    I hadn't realized ethereal=Shadow World. Also, I mostly made any planar spells one level higher than for wizards, and concentrated on the banishing-type ones. I think shadow-based spells seem very appropriate for magicians. What I'm unclear on is what exactly you think should fill in the needed spell slots.

    I also noticed a number of "new" spells not previously mentioned and was wondering about them. They seem OK based on the brief abbreviation, but again I wouldn't rely on "new" spells to fill in the slots. And IMO they should be added to some other casters list too.
    There were 2 new main spells I added, Competence and Insight. I had suggested the idea for Competence on the previous thread on the 3.5 Magician, and Insight was one I added as a spell that seemed the real province of the specialized Diviner. The other spells were spinoffs and upgrades of these two spells - Greater and Mass versions.

    Competence could easily be a wizard/sorcerer spell, too, if folks would like it as a generally-available arcane spell.Given how cheap it is to make competence-bonus magic items, it seems odd there is no spell for giving similar bonuses.

    Insight, however, is the first of several spells I'd like to see be exclusive spells tot he magician. One of the major reasons the magician lacks equality as a class (no matter what class features are concocted) is the lack of any true advantages other than more spells from a limited set of choices, all of which are equal or inferior to wizard and sorcerer spells. Just as the Bard has some really great spells, a few of which are not available to sorcerers or wizards (or only as higher level spells), I would like to see at least a small array of spells that are too subtle for the raw surges of true magic. Specialist Divination and Illusion spells that highlight the advantages of the "Lesser Path." If we are to go with 3.x D&D, and work to balance this class, then we need to give it the means to prove that they can fill a role that true mages cannot. And that takes some exclusive abilities.

    So what I would like to see are other submissions for new Magician spells, unique to their spell list AND well worth learning. Signature spells.

    Osprey

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 5 2004, 11:00 PM

    I hadn't realized ethereal=Shadow World. Also, I mostly made any planar spells one level higher than for wizards, and concentrated on the banishing-type ones. I think shadow-based spells seem very appropriate for magicians. What I'm unclear on is what exactly you think should fill in the needed spell slots.
    BRCS-playtest pg 85 "There is no "ethereal plane" or "shadow plane" coexistant to Aebrynis; for the purposes of spell effects, the Shadow World fills the role of both."

    Nope I don't have a ready suggestion for replacement spells either.

    I did say the following:

    While it makes sense for a magician to have shadow access spells I wouldn't rely on them to fill in the needed spell slots.
    My point being that simply playing with the spell list is not going to be the answer. There is more involved than a few more spells, since it would essentially require adding a bunch of high levels spells to the magician's spell list to jsut come close to the number needed. Remember being a specialist he can cast an extra spell of each level from either Div or Ill schools and at high levels this generally means very little. Essentially the magician would be able to cast one of the 4-6 spells he knows that meet that requisite an additional time.

    At lower levels the magician works out fairly well given a restrictive spell list, but at about 7th level spells he starts to fade quickly.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    At lower levels the magician works out fairly well given a restrictive spell list, but at about 7th level spells he starts to fade quickly.
    Agreed. I definitely get your point, and share your sentiment. I was playing with some ideas, and am curious what folks thought.

    1. Give the Magician a spell list that parallels the Bard's spell list. 0 through 6th level spells only, make key divination and illusion spells one level lower than [true] mages', and adjust spell progression to something a bit faster and higher quantity than bards.

    One of the great things about this proposition is the conceptual symmetry between true mages and workers of the lesser path, one that lends itself well toward creating 4 balanced arcane classes in BR:

    -True mages have 9 levels of spells, many with dramatic effects, but 2 approaches: the intuitive approach of the sorcerer, and the structured approach of the wizard.

    -Practitioners of the Lesser Path have 6 levels of spells, many of them subtle and specialized. The Bard is to the Sorcerer as the Magician is to the Wizard, plus each has their respective (related) specialties.

    The net result, though, is that bards and magicians will have very similar spell lists to one another, but very different lists from true mages.

    This also allows the Bard to be used as a comparative template for designing a core Magician class and its features. Just as Bards are all-arounders, Magicians should work out ot be somewhat similar. However, since Bards are Cha-focused in magic and skills, magicians should be more of the scholarly sorts - Int-focused, with lots of skill points (at least 6 per level, maybe 8) and a good array of class skills. While bards have bardic music (a powerful class feature), the specialist powers of Magicians (along the lines of Bearcat's earlier ideas for 2 paths) and faster spell progression would be their compensators. Possibly bonus feats or other class abilities too (Magicians should definitely have their own Lore ability, based on research and literacy instead or rumour and gossip).

    What do folks think of this approach? The more I chew on it, the more I'm liking it...

    Osprey

  8. #8
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    A 6-level magician spell list seems an interesting idea, but it would be best to provide ourselves with a draft of how that plays out...

  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    It occurs to me that one interesting way of handling Magicians` use of MM

    might be to give them access to the spell but restrict their casting of it

    so that it cannot exceed be better than 4th caster level. That is, a

    magician casting MM cannot ever produce more than two missiles.



    Other 1st and 2nd level spells from schools other than illusion and

    divination could be handled in a similar way in order to portray the BR

    restriction on true magics. Of course, one couldn`t have an individual

    spell description for MM and every other 1st and 2nd level spell in the 3e

    PHB, but it would be possible to put such a restriction in the magician

    character class description to handle the issue.



    Gary

  10. #10
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    I am stongly against giving magicians Summon Monster Spells!!! That is the True Magic area pal!!

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