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Thread: Time and Magic

  1. #11
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:
    >
    > Nope! I'd say it won't happen.
    > If he tries to do that, the Magian or the Gorgon would have taken notice of
    > him, and would prolly try to slay such a character before their power brgun
    > to rival their own.
    >
    At lower levels, individual PC's aren't likely to get noticed. At 15th+
    level,
    I think that the Magian/Gorgon/Raven is going to have a very hard time
    of it.
    Why? 1) PC's usually will ally to deal with threats on that scale, and 4
    15th+
    level PC's have a good shot at killing the Gorgon if he comes
    personally. 2)
    If he sends an army he has to go through all the domains between the
    mage and him,
    with the mages magical powers opposing it. 3) Assasination attempts
    against high
    level mages inside their own castles/towers have this tendency to fail
    99% of the
    time. Also, note that if it was easy to kill a high level character,
    somebody
    would have already killed the gorgon/magian/raven.
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  2. #12
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Bernardo79@aol.com wrote:
    >
    > I have a question. Why does the wish spell have to exist on Cerilia? Plus,
    > as the gods would most likely put a stop to any being trying to become a demi-
    > god with magic. Its a nice senario but any DM worth their salt would see to
    > it, that first off no PC would have a wish spell, and second that they not
    > ever be allowed such a power on an already powerful enough world. I as a GM
    > not a MHGM (monty hall) feel that the roleplaying isn't in the levels but in
    > the fun. All of my players have fun, so the campaigns don't get boring. And
    > my characters rarely make it past 11th lvl. The usually grow too old, or die.
    > There is a reason that there are not big time adventurers a-plenty in gaming
    > worlds... the Death and Dismemberment policy : )
    >
    Are you suggesting that you deliberately go out of your way to kill high
    level
    PC's? If not, I have difficulty believing you comments. You (as DM)
    might
    retire such PC's, but high level PC's invariably are tougher to kill off
    than
    low level ones, even in appropriate level adventures. In other words,
    in general
    PC's increase in levels. Secondly, even if your PC's aren't doing this,
    what
    about the Awnsheglien.
    Finally, yes you can stop your players by "putting the fear of gods into
    them"
    after all your are the DM. However, I would question if the gods of
    Birthright
    would interfere. After all, they haven't intervened to destroy various
    demigod
    level awnsheglien/Ersheglien, in particular the Gorgon, the Serpent, the
    Magian,
    and the Raven. Not to mention that the gods seem to have a no direct
    intervention
    policy with regards to the Cerilian continent at least.

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  3. #13
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Ryan Freire wrote:
    >
    > The wish spell puts a horrible horrible drain on anyone casting it,
    > aging them and causing them to take to bed for 2d4 days after casting
    > it. I believe it was overlooked in the PHB but Limited wish ages the
    > caster 1 year for every 100 years of lifespan, i imagine wish (which
    > says it ages the caster 5 years) should read 5 years for every 100 years
    > of lifespan, thats a LOT! I imagine that this was overlooked since
    > according to base d+d rules, only humans could reach a high enough level
    > to cast wish spells. And the Gorgon isnt immortal per se, he just ages 1
    > year for every century that passes, meaning he casts that spell and with
    > a lifespan of around oh..we'll say 3000 years, since he got the ability
    > during the mid range of his life, when he casts that spell he ages 150
    > years, OUCH!
    BTW, don't forget that liches are unaging as well as elves which means
    you
    still have to worry about the Magian, El-Shigul, and any other surviving
    members of the lost (plus any PC liches).


    > Elves, value living their lives to the fullest, and while
    > it may not have MUCH of an effect on them, giving up time in their lives
    > is NOT something elves would enjoy doing (too much like necromancy) so i
    > personally would penalize any player-character elf doing this for bad
    > roleplay.
    Say what? I take it they are not allowed to cast realm spells either in
    your game. Remember a realm spell lays you up for a month. Not to
    mention making magic items (permanancy and enchant an item are both
    extremely hard on the caster), and assorted other spells.


    > Also an interesting rule was that it takes 10 wishes to raise
    > a stat 1 point above 16. With the DM's twisting the wording to grant
    > the wish in the most expedient manner possible that requires the least
    > amount of power expended, using wishes becomes very risky as well.
    >
    Now this is something that I might use as a temporary solution. Yes, my
    players are bright enough to figure out how to use a wish properly (when
    they have time to figure it out).
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  4. #14
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Craig Dalrymple wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > Life can be fun, :) especially when you are punishing your players...
    >
    You know, I don't think I'd like playing in your campaign very much when
    you are deliberately trying to punish your players for using their
    abilities to the fullest. Do you do this to high level fighters who
    want
    to learn weapon mastery? "Oh, you slipped while training an
    accidentally
    chopped off your foot, congratulations"
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  5. #15
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    >
    > Anyway, this is the sort of thing that lies at the heart of my dislike of
    > battlespells. First, I don't really like the idea of giving a magic user a
    > much more powerful version of his low level spell as simply and easily as
    > that. I've argued that wizards are under powered in BR terms, but giving a 1st
    > level wizard the power to hit 200 guys with a magic missile isn't exactly what
    > I had in mind.
    True, this is a problem. Espcially when he gets to 5th level. Rain of
    Fireballs/
    lightning bolts/Hold Persons (For those of you who don't like ecological
    damage)
    anyone?


    > Second, I don't quite get the rationalization for a middle step
    > between regular spells and realm magic. Third, I don't see why it is
    > necessary. If a mage wants a spell that effects an entire unit he should
    > invent such a spell. That spell could either have a very large area of effect
    > or be of unlimited duration so that he could cast it on all 200 members of a
    > unit over a month or two. Why bother with a battlespell at all?
    >
    Mostly, because such larger areas of effect would require much higher
    level spells,
    making a low level mage in birthrigh even weaker. Also, some of the
    effects given
    as battle spells are ridiculously powerful, even for 9th level spells.
    See for
    example flying unit. Adapt it to boats, and use
    permanence/Semi-permanence/wish.
    Hello fleet of airships.


    > One last point regarding spells. Is it just me or is the Improved Armor spell
    > in the BoM (p92) too powerful? AC 2 with an unlimited duration? None of the
    > players in my campaign have quite hit upon the realization that they could cast
    > this spell on all their mounts and eliminate the need for barding, or that they
    > could cast it on all the party members and give them an unarmored AC 2 whenever
    > they are just hanging out at the castle. This spell in combination with a
    > Stoneskin could make characters pretty near invulnerable for the first several
    > rounds of any hand-to-hand fight.
    >
    Well, they probably haven't realized the power of the 1st level version
    (Armor)
    either. And well, it is not overpowered when compared to it's 1st level
    counterpart. Compare fireball and magic missile. The power jump is
    comparable,
    and the level difference is 2 not 3.


    > Gary
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  6. #16
    Ryan Freire
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    >BTW, don't forget that liches are unaging as well as elves which >means
    you still have to worry about the Magian, El-Shigul, and any >other
    surviving members of the lost (plus any PC liches).

    First off, im suprised you would allow a pc to become a lich and not
    become an npc. And elves arent necessarily unaging, just immortal, Allan
    Aleigh (sp?) is considered very old for an elf. As for liches, since
    they essentially beome monsters (and ability stats become rathe r moot)
    raising stats becomes moot, and since most liches have gathered a rather
    large group of enemies by the time they make it to lichdom, spending 2d4
    days incapacitated might not seem such a great plan when your enemies
    may be stomping down to your lair.


    >Say what? I take it they are not allowed to cast realm spells either
    >in your game. Remember a realm spell lays you up for a month. Not >to
    mention making magic items (permanancy and enchant an item are >both
    extremely hard on the caster), and assorted other spells.

    The rest from a realm spell is from the exhaustion for channeling
    magical energies...not having a chunk of your life force ripped from
    your body, in my game i expect elves to be very very reluctant to use
    anything that smacks of necromancy (ie: spells that use life force to
    bring their effects into being) Its not the time laid up they mind...its
    the loss of some of their essence.

    As for permanency, that is a spell that i feel is inaccurate for the
    amount of magical items the base d+d rules would have someone give out
    in a campaign. The average dragon hoard would have around three to six
    constitution points worth of magical items according to base d+d rules.
    What mage in his right mind is going to sacrifice his constitution to
    make a weapon or armor +1? IMO permanency should only do con drain, when
    cast on a living being, and the con drain should come from the being it
    is cast upon


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  7. #17
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Ryan Freire wrote:
    >
    > >BTW, don't forget that liches are unaging as well as elves which >means
    > you still have to worry about the Magian, El-Shigul, and any >other
    > surviving members of the lost (plus any PC liches).
    >
    > First off, im suprised you would allow a pc to become a lich and not
    > become an npc.

    Why? In birthright PC's have the potential to become Ersheglien/
    Awnsheglien, and at least a theoretical potential to ascend to divinity
    (as the serpent seems to be doing). A lich retains it's own
    personality,
    intelligence and ability to make choices and therefore is a viable PC,
    if
    it is balanced within the game. It's not like PC's in my game are
    restricted to only good/neutral alignments.



    > And elves arent necessarily unaging, just immortal, Allan
    > Aleigh (sp?) is considered very old for an elf. As for liches, since
    > they essentially beome monsters (and ability stats become rather moot)
    > raising stats becomes moot, and since most liches have gathered a rather
    > large group of enemies by the time they make it to lichdom, spending 2d4
    > days incapacitated might not seem such a great plan when your enemies
    > may be stomping down to your lair.
    >
    You could make the same argument about normal PC's and NPC's using
    wishes.
    What makes you think a Lich won't be able to have minions to protect it
    during this "down time".

    > >Say what? I take it they are not allowed to cast realm spells either
    > >in your game. Remember a realm spell lays you up for a month. Not >to
    > mention making magic items (permanancy and enchant an item are >both
    > extremely hard on the caster), and assorted other spells.
    >
    > The rest from a realm spell is from the exhaustion for channeling
    > magical energies...not having a chunk of your life force ripped from
    > your body, in my game i expect elves to be very very reluctant to use
    > anything that smacks of necromancy (ie: spells that use life force to
    > bring their effects into being) Its not the time laid up they mind...its
    > the loss of some of their essence.
    >
    Since when does casting a wish rip a chunk of your life force from your
    body? It's not a level drain effect. Rather the aging effect is a
    severe
    strain generated by channeling large mystic energies, rather like a
    realm
    spell. Only a realm spell has no permanent effects as the majority of
    the
    power of the realm spell is actually channeled through the mages
    sources.
    Note that this is assumed not to occur in a Wish spell as it was
    designed
    for generic AD&D where there are no bloodlines and associated sources.
    This
    view is supported by the fact the the wish spell is classified as
    conjuration/summoning rather than necromancy. Also, I would suggest
    that a
    simple portion of the casters life force is simply not enough power to
    do
    all the things a wish can potentially do.

    > As for permanency, that is a spell that i feel is inaccurate for the
    > amount of magical items the base d+d rules would have someone give out
    > in a campaign. The average dragon hoard would have around three to six
    > constitution points worth of magical items according to base d+d rules.
    > What mage in his right mind is going to sacrifice his constitution to
    > make a weapon or armor +1? IMO permanency should only do con drain, when
    > cast on a living being, and the con drain should come from the being it
    > is cast upon
    >
    I agree with you, and this is in fact the official TSR viewpoint. No
    con.
    drain unless cast on a living being. However, permanency and many other
    spells (eg. haste) are considered to have a negative effect on the
    casters
    health. Do you bar all such spells from elves?
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  8. #18
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Permanancy only draines constitution when it is cast to make a spell
    permanent on an other person, not when crafting a magical item. I am not
    sure where I hear or read this, but I am quite sure this is even
    official canon. There are some heavty difficulties in creating magical
    items anyway, not to mention the costs. My players need a stone-to-flesh
    spell, which is a sixth level spell. So I have recently calculated that
    this will cost a mimum of 4 GB, since it is a private investment the
    ruler will not grant any GB from the treasury. Still money is hardly the
    problem, it will take at least 3 full actions to ressearch the spell and
    which 12th lvl true mage (and most likely regent) can afford that much
    time away from the realm? Any 12th lvl mage is either a regent or famous
    and a lot of people will be asking their help.

    This brings me to people suggestion casting the same spell for months.
    No regent in his right mind will be able to do that. A PC mage once
    tried to research a certain spell and due to random events (yes I use
    them, so flame me) he never was able to finish the research and in the
    end he gave it up. Then I am not even mentioning non-random events, like
    rival mages who love to take their chance and upsurp some sources if the
    researching mage is away for some time.

  9. #19
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Mages are powerfull and that is how it is supposed to be. The problems
    thar pointed at in this discusion hardly problems of Birthrigh alone.
    The difference is that there are not that many powerfull mages on
    Cerilia and most of them happen to be the evil, on conquest minded
    bastards. These mages as of yet do not rule the world, so it appears
    there are some limitations on their magic. I think that this is were
    this discusion is about, it certainly is not about limiting the
    hard-earned power of PC's.

    The most important check on the power of a mage is the fact that while
    he might be immortal, time does not stop for them. A mage can not leave
    his domain unchecked for long, there are bound to be attacks, upsurption
    attempts, assassinations, natural dissasters, etc. Appointing
    lieutenants and other people to solve these problems will not help in
    the long run. It will only help to make the lieutenant more powerfull
    and liked by the populace (if he manages to solve the problem). Not to
    mention that the trust of evil people for other people is rather
    limited. A month on bed is nothing for an elf, but what if the country
    is invaded at that moment? Enemies also have magic available and they
    will use it to spy or determine the best moment to attack. The fact that
    mages or very rare is a two edged knife, there are few with the power to
    oppose you, but also very few to help you. So when planning to do
    something as lengthy as we are discussing here a lot of preperation and
    spying should proceed.

    An other way to limit the power of certain spells somewhat, is by
    looking at the description of the spell and comparing it with other
    spells or magical abilities/items and their limitations. A wizard can
    have only one homunaclus and one familiar, if the 'reincarnation' gets a
    part of the soul of the creature duplicated, then it would not be
    difficult to assume that there is a limit on the ammount of simulacri
    for one person. Sure, it is not in the rules, but I do not think that it
    is that troublesome. As a player I would accept that limitation. Other
    people might not like to give such broad interpretations to things
    described in the spell descriptions. But I think they are needed
    sometimes for game balance or just plain roleplaying. Why else would
    some persons forbid battle magic, while it is an official rule? Isn't
    that doing exactly the same? Limiting the power of magic to help suspend
    disbelieve and create some balance.

  10. #20
    Sindre Berg
    Guest

    Time and Magic

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

    > A simple solution to the abuse of wishes would be to make the aging
    > effect be on constitution. In stead of aging 5 years the person will
    > lose an constitution effect that is not recoverable by a wish spell.
    > This would certainly stand for the draining effect of the spell. I
    > think
    > this is much better anyway, since the mage that is able to cast a wish
    >
    > probably can develop potions that reduce the mage in age. For liches
    > and
    > other undead the drain in constitution could show itself in a hastened
    >
    > rotting or desintegrating of the body and reduce an ammount of the
    > maximum hit points that the creature can have.
    > Remember that a wish spell can copy any other spell and in the
    > case of
    > the spell made permanent, this can be dispeled with a simple dispel
    > magic (this is just a simple combination of a permanency and an other
    > spell).
    >
    > *******
    > ************************************************** *****************
    > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    > line
    > If I'm going to be a real rules-lawyer... If you reread the Permanency
    spell it says any personal spell made permanent can only be dispelled by
    a wizard of higher level, and since the wizard casting the wish spell is
    18th at least it narrows down quite a bit how many who could dispel it,
    and even then in the campaigns I've played you then have to roll high
    enough on the d20.

    - --
    Sindre

    Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

    www.uio.no/~sindrejb

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