Underground Provs

[Morg]

Hail!

I would like some suggestions from you folks regarding "Underground
Provinces".

How do you account for dwarven underground kingdoms, and Orog Holds? Do
you have some formula to divide the province level (on the map) in which
these underground realms exist? Is there some info listing 'levels' of
underground regions anywhere? I saw the 'UnderGround Province Rule" in
the netbook, but it is not quite what i am looking for.

In the Empire and Havens book, the dwarves are all detailed as having
fortified holdings because they are assumed to be 'underground'. Is
this to imply that the actual surface of Baruk Azhik is devoid of
life/habitation? How would the mining's & workings of the dwarves
underground, affect the above ground sources then? Perhaps the dwarves
are similar to the elves in this? The dwarves can rule holdings etc.,
without affecting the source potential? Maybe it's on a 2:1 scale
instead? Thus, a dwarf can rule a holding 2 levels before it affects
the source? can these only exist in mountainous terrain, or anywhere?

Is the 'underground province' limited to 1/2 the 'surface' level that is
detailed on the map? A 5/0 surface province might indicate that the
'underground province' can be a maximum of 3/0? I don't think you can
cram too many people into an underground province, as the tunnels and
caverns would have less 'surface area' (due to supporting walls and
columns). This would also give some justification to the dwarves
reduced birth rate, though I'm not sure what an Orog's reproductive
schedule is like.

Anyway, some suggestions on what might be some good methods for
determining the values of dwarven/orog underground provinces would be
much appreciated.

Keith

- --
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power in your veins.
So strong it is, it's source must be Uther Pendragon."
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[Jim Cooper]

My amazing and stupendous apprentice Morg wrote:
> Anyway, some suggestions on what might be some good methods for
> determining the values of dwarven/orog underground provinces would be
> much appreciated.<

As DM IMC, I rule that dwarves and orogs don't allow any other races to
exist above their homes (just to keep a prov pop homogenous, for sake of
simplicity). Also, these two races can develop a province +2 levels
better than the max allowed in the back of the rulebook (this explains
why some the dwarven high mountain provinces are level 5, but it says
that high mtn provinces can only be developed to 3). I reason this way
because 1) these races are such good miners (although I warn you not to
compare a dwarf to an orog! That would have fatal consequences!) and
2) for the dwarves, this can justify partly why they are suffering
negative population growth (eg, no dwarf player will be able to rule a
province above level 5). For orogs, I reason that by the time a
province reaches 5, population pressures and cultural influences dictate
that Orog leaders start thinking its time to move on and conqueor
another area. So that's why Orogs are limited to the same constriction.

Now, dwarves do not affect a province's source level (they recycle and
reuse waste material), while Orog cultures affect sources as outlined in
the Taliniean sourcebook (because of all the waste material and crap
they throw up aboveground).

Otherwise, I treat them as any other province and/or race.

Cheers,
Darren

[Kenneth Gauck]

As mentioned in a previous post, I advise players and DM's to be warry of
everything said in the Baruk-Azhik players secrets relating to their society
and agroeconomy. Its hard to run a realm undeground without explaining some
alternatives for the sun.

In the edifying words of "They Might be Giants"
"We need its light. We need its heat. We need its energy. Without the
sun, without a doubt, there'd be no you and me."

The food sources suggested in the BA sup is entirely inadequate for the
population presented. The dwarves must live on the surface, even if their
dwellings are built into the earth rather than on top of it. Surface
resources must be exploited (indeed even the orogs raid the surface) by the
dwarves, and that requires a regular presence. So put the dwarves at the
surface. I would put the orogs below them. And the underdark below them.
Derro and Duergar are a serious threat to Baruk-Azhik in my campaign.

Dwarven activity destroys sources just as human activity does. Dwarves try
to make the land useful, the idea of harmony is fundamentally different for
dwarves and elves.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Tim Nutting]

> Hail!
>
> I would like some suggestions from you folks regarding "Underground
> Provinces".

I tend to ignore the idea that a province can exist sportily of the above
ground element. I have not the placement, but the quote "A province is the
same, above as below." seems to stick in this cobweb pit called my head.

I ruled that in most circumstances the terrain does not permit massive
city-sized structures on the level that would be necessary to house and feed
20,000+ people unless it is in a mountainous province. In that case I wouldn't
even make a distinction, but I would allow the continued growth of a province
exceeding it's max level for mountains if the builders were working below
ground.

I do make an exception for the "underdark" if such even exists on Cerilia (IMC
it does not).

Tim Nutting

[James Knevitt]

- ---Tim Nutting wrote:
>
> > Hail!
> >
> > I would like some suggestions from you folks regarding "Underground
> > Provinces".
>
> I tend to ignore the idea that a province can exist sportily of the
above
> ground element. I have not the placement, but the quote "A province
is the
> same, above as below." seems to stick in this cobweb pit called my
head.
>
> I ruled that in most circumstances the terrain does not permit massive
> city-sized structures on the level that would be necessary to house
and feed
> 20,000+ people unless it is in a mountainous province. In that case
I wouldn't
> even make a distinction, but I would allow the continued growth of a
province
> exceeding it's max level for mountains if the builders were working
below
> ground.
>
> I do make an exception for the "underdark" if such even exists on
Cerilia (IMC
> it does not).
>
> Tim Nutting

Good idea. I tend to rule that the bulk of a province's population is
either above ground or below ground. (ie humans have above ground
provs 99.9% of the time, whereas dwarves would have a lot of
underground provs, as would orogs). This way it shuts all my players
up. AS for the underdark comment, underdark as such does not exist in
my campaign either, but I have decided to incorporate illithids and
psoinics into it. It puts everybody on their toes a bit more. Hell,
one of my regents has an ularithid lieutenant !! (He's gonna betray
him to his illithid brethren eventually. He's just above ground
'scouting the area' for the Ariser creed and planning an attack on the
'cattle' secretly. This all came about after I picked up the Illithiad
(damn good book!).

Any comments/suggestions ?

James
Critical Mass Studios
(Makers of the Soothsayer multi-genre RPG)
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