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  1. #1
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    Just curious, if we seem committed to the view that all GS are evil, is anyone
    convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd always
    pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human foes
    to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there as it
    would for PCs?

  2. #2
    Bernardo79@aol.co
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    In a message dated 10/19/98 5:45:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
    zero@wiredweb.com writes:

    >

    There is something you are missing here. What are the GS's motives. They are
    not killing evil things because they are evil. They are killig evil things
    because what they are. If a bunch of nice little babies and women all of
    lawful good alignment where lost in the forrests, they would be slaughtered.
    The GS are murdering the humans because they are humans what the alignment the
    humans are is irrelavaent. I hope that clears it up for you.

    Bernie
    GM of When Night Falls Brechtur Saga: and looking for DMs
    http://members.aol.com/bernardo79/brechtur.htm

  3. #3
    Trizt
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    Tim Nutting (zero@wiredweb.com) wrote:

    - -> Just curious, if we seem committed to the view that all GS are evil, is
    anyone
    - -> convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd
    always
    - -> pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human
    foes
    - -> to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there
    as it
    - -> would for PCs?

    As humans are generally ego sentric, I would say that the mercenaries of the
    White Witch would be evil.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

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    MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
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  4. #4
    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    >anyone
    > convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd
    always
    > pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human
    foes
    > to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there
    as it
    > would for PCs?
    > >>
    >
    >There is something you are missing here. What are the GS's motives. They
    are
    >not killing evil things because they are evil. They are killig evil things
    >because what they are. If a bunch of nice little babies and women all of
    >lawful good alignment where lost in the forrests, they would be slaughtered.
    >The GS are murdering the humans because they are humans what the alignment
    the
    >humans are is irrelavaent. I hope that clears it up for you.

    Hmm.. The GS kills all. I thought we discussed it.
    Its not the Hunt of Humans... Yes, the elves of the GS are rascists.
    But not specifically against humans, against all others than elves.

    Siebharrin the Lich

  5. #5
    Bernardo79@aol.co
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    In a message dated 10/19/98 1:23:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no writes:

    >

    Once again, I am not saying they are only human killers. They are killers.
    But goblins and elves do not co-exist as equals. Elves and humans do, and as
    it attributes it only to humans in the tuarhuevel descriptions in roe, I am
    assuming it is what makes them different from normal good elves, in the fact
    theat they murder humans. They are evil because they are murders, that is what
    I am saying. I mean it is appaerntly so horendous in the way that the elves
    kill these humans, that Shadow world is desending on the area. Hmmm, maybe
    that means the people who commit the attrocities are actually nice neutral
    people.... ok... believe that... The Gorgon could slaughter 50 evil goblins,
    would that make him any less evil? No. See by appling that logic elsewhere
    you can judge it without bias. Elves may be almost everyones favorite demi-
    human and it is hard to say that non-evil races of elves (drow vs high) can
    have evil in them, but here in BR world, elves are varied as are humans and
    dwarves. Sure I would love it if we could see some good goblin areas, but as
    this is still ad&d we still have our love-to-hate goblins and mosters so deal
    with it or change it You have that option as a GM. Make Thurazur the land of
    the happy nice goblins, with their lovely white hats, pants, and shoes, that
    every kid would love to cuddle. I prefer the way it is, but you may choose
    differently. That is why each game is unique.

    Bernie Cannariato
    GM of When Night Falls, Brechtur Saga... which is in need of GMs.
    http://members.aol.com/bernardo79/brechtur.htm

  6. #6
    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    >Elves may be almost everyones favorite demi-
    >human and it is hard to say that non-evil races of elves (drow vs high) can
    >have evil in them, but here in BR world, elves are varied as are humans and
    >dwarves.

    Nono.. Gully Dwarves are the best race TSR ever created.
    Nothing beats trying to RP a gully dwarf (and making the gaming group go
    crazy).
    Theyareevenbetterthantinkergnomes!!

    Siebharrin the Lich

  7. #7
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    Opposing evil does not permit one to employ evil means in responce. The
    methods that are permited during any just cause are still applicable, but
    torture, brutality, and pillage are always impermissable to the cause of
    good.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Tim Nutting
    Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 5:51 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - The GS of Lluabraight


    >Just curious, if we seem committed to the view that all GS are evil, is
    anyone
    >convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd
    always
    >pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human
    foes
    >to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there as
    it
    >would for PCs?

  8. #8
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    The GS of Lluabraight

    > Opposing evil does not permit one to employ evil means in responce. The
    > methods that are permited during any just cause are still applicable, but
    > torture, brutality, and pillage are always impermissable to the cause of
    > good.

    Best response thus far. Thanks Ken.

    I brought this up because I felt there had been a double standard placed for
    Humans and Elves, specifically in the concept of PCs being more readily excused
    for excesses than NPCs. I saw responses advocating the total annihilation of
    certain races because they are "evil", more accurately, they aren't human and
    thus are expendable. If I had asked "what about how they deal with the Goblins
    of Urga Zai?", I suspect that the answers would have been different.

    What I had seen was the idea that if the PCs were part of a frontier defense
    group, like the Watch of the Giantdowns, then it would be okay for them to go
    out and make "pre-emptive strikes" on the Goblins and humanoids, and in fact it
    would also be okay for them to kill the non-combatants. However, what if the
    PCs suddenly had to "defend" against the White Witch's armies?

    I titled this "The GS of Lluabraight" for a few reasons:

    1) All their enemies are evil, even the humans. (Remember, Goblins are all
    evil so they are okay to kill. In fact, some have even called it a Good act.)

    2) All their enemies are oppressive and, with the possible exception of the
    White Witch, on campaigns of conquest.

    3) This land is in REAL danger of dying, because the source of power that has
    made Lluabraight the independent nation it was has been lost. They already
    have lost 2 provinces to the Ghuralli in the space of a few years.

    In fact, the description of how the Ghuralli treats elven prisoners could
    almost make me proud to be a member of the GS on the south watch (dependent
    upon the methods employed). Anyone who can make my friends and neighbors
    "...screams echo through the woods for days..." almost begs to be killed on
    sight.

    One more thing. Elves and humans are only on an equal basis because we humans
    think so. The Elves of BR do not. Whether we like it or not, that is the way
    they are written, so for the humanocentric principle that it is somehow okay to
    kill goblin babies because they are evil and inferior to humans to hold water,
    from the Sidhelien centered view, humans, who are inferior to Sidhe and evil
    (what Good race would defile the land so? How can a short lived mortal be
    equal to the immortal Fey?) are just as acceptably dispatched of.

    I think that, further, from the Sidhelien perspective, humans are worse than
    goblins. For 10,000 years the Sidhe kept their lands largely whole form
    humanoid depredation. When the humans came, they were seen as possible allies
    against the goblins. That worked for a while, but then the humans got greedy
    and wanted more than what was given, so they decided to take it. Now the elven
    lands are shambles, pitiful remembrances of what they once were. From their
    perspective, who's worse? I wonder why I can believe so easily that the humans
    did what they did in this setting?

    From our perspective, as humans, would it matter overmuch if we were fighting a
    race war against a folk that were like gnats? They grow to maturity in the
    space of a few days, live for about two weeks, and then perish. How could they
    possibly attain any level of culture or meaning? Would we all balk at the
    concept of "nuking them before they spread?" Further, if they reproduce so
    quickly, could we even accept that two hundred generations after the war
    started (about two years for us, give or take) that we were fighting a
    different war? Wouldn't it still be the same war for us? To some elves, the
    situation is identical. They are probably evil, as I would label them.

    Personally, I find the above statements distasteful. I find it just as wrong
    for a band of humans to dress up in shiny armor and wave holy symbols and go
    lay waste to a goblin village as it is for a bunch of elves to do the same
    thing to humans. However, I have to wonder at the questions I ask in the
    preceding paragraph. The debates of the last two weeks have really caused me
    to look very hard at my core beliefs, and I have to wonder what I REALLY would
    think.

    I guess I have to tip my hat somewhat to the POV crowd and try to blend my
    belief here, because I certainly have a view that differs from others about
    what is good and evil. I guess I'm fairly ego-centic, however, because I'm
    almost convinced that I'm absolutely right about the two poles. But then
    again, that's just not my so humble opinion. :)

    Later guys and gals,
    Game on!

    Tim Nutting

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