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  1. #21
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    Kai Beste wrote:

    > Ok, killing defenceless (I won't say innocent) civilians is basically
    > evil. This far I agree. But I don't think the gheallie sidhe were
    > originally racists, but they may have become racists over time.

    Well, from what I've read there is nothing to lead me to believe that the GS were
    ever anything but racist.

    > The way I imagine the humans spread was that increasing population
    > pressure and high taxes forced many poor peasants to look for new
    > land elsewhere. A couple of them gathered together, packed their
    > waggons and settled someplace in the "wild lands" or no man's land.
    > Of course a lot of them got killed by some nasties, such as goblins,
    > orogs, Azrai's followers and, of course, by the elves who had become
    > frustrated by the fact that the humans didn't uphold their end of the
    > treaties and chopped down their trees. The farmers called out for
    > help, and the army was sent in to protect them. From there on, the
    > whole thing escalated, you all know the story.
    > Now, if you are an elf, what would you do? Kill the people who do the
    > real harm, i.e. the farmers (that's why they are not innocent!), or
    > wait until the army moves in and fight it honorably but in vain?

    I'm of the radical opinion that farming and cutting down trees is not evil,
    especially on a medieval level. You might make such an argument for the slash and
    burn farming going on in South America, but I really don't buy it for Cerilia.

    It's not like farming is the high profit, low risk activity that I think it has
    been presented on this message board. Farmers don't rake in the money like I think
    people are making it sound. Farming is the way humans subsist. If you are gong to
    cast the elves as people trying to defend their culture by killing humans for
    farming, why not use the same standard for humans? Humans farm to live. Keeping
    forested land unfarmed could potentially starve humans all over Cerilia.

    > I know it is an oversimplification, but if there are no farmers to
    > protect there's no need for an army. I won't say the farmers had much
    > choice in the matter, but so do the elves. They tried to live
    > together in peace when the humans first came to Cerilia, but it did
    > not work out. They tried to fight them on the field of battle, and
    > lost. There are not many options left to them. Elves have long
    > memories, and they won't trust the humans as easily as they once did.

    I don't see any information that they ever trusted humans. The most they hoped for
    was that they could keep away from them. That's not the same thing at all. Elves
    were also perfectly happy to let humans fight off the humanoids without getting
    involved. It wasn't until humans started farming that elves got involved, and for
    the GS that involvement immediately went from "Hey, don't cut down those trees" to
    "Kill all humans!"

    > But they also know they can't fight them, because humans are just
    > too numerable.
    > There is no glory in war, and no honor, and, above all, no real
    > winner (except maybe the war industry :). Both sides will commit
    > atrocities. To the gheallie sidhe, the war is not over until they
    > have driven the humans from their ancestral lands. They see this as
    > defense of their homeland, and don't see themselves as evil.
    > On the other hand, the humans have "won" the war. From their point of
    > view the gheallie sidhe murders defenseless humans without remorse.
    > To the humans, this is evil. There is a saying in German (I don't
    > know if there is an English equivalent) that says history is written
    > by the winner. So in a few hundred years elves will probably regarded
    > as evil.

    I still don't see this conflict as being a war. War is entirely different from the
    type of racial terrorism engaged in by the GS.

    > I can agree on most of this. The gheallie sidhe are evil because they
    > kill indiscriminately. But does this make the humans any better?

    It would make them no different from humans who killed indescriminately. Show me
    humans that do that and I'd say they are evil.

    > The elves tried to live in peace with the humans, but it did not work
    > out. And why? Because of the most basic human motivation: greed.

    I think the most basic human motivation is survival. My argument against the GS is
    that their motivation is not really based upon elven survival. The activities of
    the GS are actually one of the things that might hasten the demise of the elves,
    because they can't afford a military stalemate with humans. Humans reproduce so
    much more quickly that they will inevitably lose such a standoff.

    Gary

  2. #22
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8yvind_
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    I think that you can draw a comparison to the Elves forming the
    Gheallie Sidhe to that the Native Americans (not all of them,
    though) raided on the colonizers settlements.
    I think the process is very much the same too (except that I do
    not think any human government in Birthright has outright gone
    to the extent of driving elves away with the army).
    So this is basicly humans colonizing Cerilia.

    I think that if the Native Americans made a terrorist group that
    had as goal to to drive away all persons of the European and African
    stock (pardon the expression), we would see that as an Evil group.

    So the Ghaellie Sidhe is generally Evil, but the cause is against an
    injustice done a very long time ago.


    Oyvind Gronnesby

  3. #23
    Kai Beste
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > As for the GS attacking civilians and not armies. I think that is
    > the crux of the matter. If the GS attacked military units then I
    > would be much more likely to see that as a moral fight. But they
    > don't. They kill innocent civilians.
    > In fact, they revel in it. That's clearly evil. In fact, I see the GS as
    > being evil bastards who only use their cultural defense argument as a cover f
    > or their racism and hatred.

    Ok, killing defenceless (I won't say innocent) civilians is basically
    evil. This far I agree. But I don't think the gheallie sidhe were
    originally racists, but they may have become racists over time.
    The way I imagine the humans spread was that increasing population
    pressure and high taxes forced many poor peasants to look for new
    land elsewhere. A couple of them gathered together, packed their
    waggons and settled someplace in the "wild lands" or no man's land.
    Of course a lot of them got killed by some nasties, such as goblins,
    orogs, Azrai's followers and, of course, by the elves who had become
    frustrated by the fact that the humans didn't uphold their end of the
    treaties and chopped down their trees. The farmers called out for
    help, and the army was sent in to protect them. From there on, the
    whole thing escalated, you all know the story.
    Now, if you are an elf, what would you do? Kill the people who do the
    real harm, i.e. the farmers (that's why they are not innocent!), or
    wait until the army moves in and fight it honorably but in vain? I
    know it is an oversimplification, but if there are no farmers to
    protect there's no need for an army. I won't say the farmers had much
    choice in the matter, but so do the elves. They tried to live
    together in peace when the humans first came to Cerilia, but it did
    not work out. They tried to fight them on the field of battle, and
    lost. There are not many options left to them. Elves have long
    memories, and they won't trust the humans as easily as they once did.
    But they also know they can't fight them, because humans are just
    too numerable.
    There is no glory in war, and no honor, and, above all, no real
    winner (except maybe the war industry :). Both sides will commit
    atrocities. To the gheallie sidhe, the war is not over until they
    have driven the humans from their ancestral lands. They see this as
    defense of their homeland, and don't see themselves as evil.
    On the other hand, the humans have "won" the war. From their point of
    view the gheallie sidhe murders defenseless humans without remorse.
    To the humans, this is evil. There is a saying in German (I don't
    know if there is an English equivalent) that says history is written
    by the winner. So in a few hundred years elves will probably regarded
    as evil.

    > Oh, I'm going to have to argue that point. Not killing people is one the
    > oldest moral statements in existence. It's Old Testament stuff.

    Yes, it is. But there is also stuff like "an eye for an eye".

    > Besides, I don't think the argument has been that the GS are evil
    > because they kill. The argument is that the GS are evil because
    > they kill indiscriminately. Even when humans came to Cerilia and
    > committed the horrific crime of cutting down trees for which they
    > earned an elven death sentence, they did not cut down trees
    > indiscriminately. Humans did not gather together in bands and say,
    > "Tonight let's go out and cut us down some trees! Yeeehaaa!
    > Get them lousy leaf producin' photosynthesizin' good for nothin'
    > bark colored, woody plants! Get 'em!" No, the humans cut down
    > trees for things like building materials and fuel. It's the humans
    > who were dealing with basic survival issues, not the elves.

    I can agree on most of this. The gheallie sidhe are evil because they
    kill indiscriminately. But does this make the humans any better?
    It surely does not make the martyrs. I've tried to point out on
    possible motivation for the elves to kill peasants and lumberjacks.
    The elves tried to live in peace with the humans, but it did not work
    out. And why? Because of the most basic human motivation: greed.

    just MO

    Kai

  4. #24
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:

    > Hmm.. I seem to recall that the elves tried to befriend the humans coming..
    > In fact, Rhoube Manslayer were the humans best friend at first.
    > Farming/logging. They are totally different.
    > Logging takes place in the forrests. farming is much better off on the plains.

    I think that comes from the in character description of the situation in the Blood
    Enemies entry for Rhoubhe himself. As such, I think it is a bit questionable as a
    source. He also describes humans has "bringing back the humanoids" if I am not
    mistaken.

    > Its a cultural war, where one part has been forced to take up arms because
    > the other part is so numerous.

    > And might I resume the sub-topic of this discussion:
    > Is GS evil?
    >
    > GS is a form of last defence. Defence is normally not considered evil.

    Arrgh! How is the GS even remotely a "last defence?" It's been going on for
    thousands of years. It started shortly after humans arrived on Cerilia. I would
    think that a last defence would have to occur in a much shorter timespan than that
    even from the elven standpoint.

    > There is a good way to get rid of GS: "Don't venture close to elven lands".
    > Then the GS wouldn't be able to recruit as many as they have done before.
    >
    > Its quite simple:
    > Humans attacked elves (though not always physically),
    > now elves defend.

    Well, again, I don't see how you can describe what the GS do as "defence". They
    kill humans indescrimanately. Defenders don't go after non-combatants. Defenders
    oppose attacks, which is not really what the GS are doing. They are hunting
    humans. Big difference.

    Gary

  5. #25
    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    >I'm of the radical opinion that farming and cutting down trees is not evil,
    >especially on a medieval level. You might make such an argument for the
    slash and
    >burn farming going on in South America, but I really don't buy it for
    Cerilia.

    Err... Trees is a natural part of the elven culture.
    And when humans go to elven lands to hunt and log, its a crime.

    >It's not like farming is the high profit, low risk activity that I think
    it has
    >been presented on this message board. Farmers don't rake in the money
    like I think
    >people are making it sound. Farming is the way humans subsist. If you
    are gong to
    >cast the elves as people trying to defend their culture by killing humans for
    >farming, why not use the same standard for humans? Humans farm to live.
    Keeping
    >forested land unfarmed could potentially starve humans all over Cerilia.

    Nono.. Humans took (and will take) elven lands to farm. Not vice-versa.

    >> I know it is an oversimplification, but if there are no farmers to
    >> protect there's no need for an army. I won't say the farmers had much
    >> choice in the matter, but so do the elves. They tried to live
    >> together in peace when the humans first came to Cerilia, but it did
    >> not work out. They tried to fight them on the field of battle, and
    >> lost. There are not many options left to them. Elves have long
    >> memories, and they won't trust the humans as easily as they once did.
    >
    >I don't see any information that they ever trusted humans. The most they
    hoped for
    >was that they could keep away from them. That's not the same thing at
    all. Elves
    >were also perfectly happy to let humans fight off the humanoids without
    getting
    >involved. It wasn't until humans started farming that elves got involved,
    and for
    >the GS that involvement immediately went from "Hey, don't cut down those
    trees" to
    >"Kill all humans!"

    Hmm.. I seem to recall that the elves tried to befriend the humans coming..
    In fact, Rhoube Manslayer were the humans best friend at first.
    Farming/logging. They are totally different.
    Logging takes place in the forrests. farming is much better off on the plains.

    >> But they also know they can't fight them, because humans are just
    >> too numerable.
    >> There is no glory in war, and no honor, and, above all, no real
    >> winner (except maybe the war industry :). Both sides will commit
    >> atrocities. To the gheallie sidhe, the war is not over until they
    >> have driven the humans from their ancestral lands. They see this as
    >> defense of their homeland, and don't see themselves as evil.
    >> On the other hand, the humans have "won" the war. From their point of
    >> view the gheallie sidhe murders defenseless humans without remorse.
    >> To the humans, this is evil. There is a saying in German (I don't
    >> know if there is an English equivalent) that says history is written
    >> by the winner. So in a few hundred years elves will probably regarded
    >> as evil.
    >
    >I still don't see this conflict as being a war. War is entirely different
    from the
    >type of racial terrorism engaged in by the GS.

    Its a cultural war, where one part has been forced to take up arms because
    the other part is so numerous.

    >> I can agree on most of this. The gheallie sidhe are evil because they
    >> kill indiscriminately. But does this make the humans any better?
    >
    >It would make them no different from humans who killed indescriminately.
    Show me
    >humans that do that and I'd say they are evil.
    >
    >> The elves tried to live in peace with the humans, but it did not work
    >> out. And why? Because of the most basic human motivation: greed.
    >
    >I think the most basic human motivation is survival. My argument against
    the GS is
    >that their motivation is not really based upon elven survival. The
    activities of
    >the GS are actually one of the things that might hasten the demise of the
    elves,
    >because they can't afford a military stalemate with humans. Humans
    reproduce so
    >much more quickly that they will inevitably lose such a standoff.

    Off course Elves will perish! The game is made like that.
    The only thing that may change that is a bright leader.
    And might I resume the sub-topic of this discussion:
    Is GS evil?

    GS is a form of last defence. Defence is normally not considered evil.
    There is a good way to get rid of GS: "Don't venture close to elven lands".
    Then the GS wouldn't be able to recruit as many as they have done before.

    Its quite simple:
    Humans attacked elves (though not always physically),
    now elves defend.

    Siebharrin the Lich

  6. #26
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    At 01:09 AM 10/16/98 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:
    >
    >>I've not decided fully on if the gheallie Sidhe is evil or not.
    > THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL QUESTION!!!!!! heh. Sorry, if you're not
    >discussing that, I was, so we're gonna completely miss each other.

    No, we are discussing it. I've just not made up my mind if its good or
    evil. One day it seems so clearly evil but another side of it shows and
    its not quite as evil as I think.

    > I left the appropriate chunk of my post up there. Nowhere does it say
    >that humans aren't killing elves. The GS hates _humanity_ as a whole, but
    >_humanity_ isn't killing elves, individual humans are, and for the GS to
    >generalize that to all humans is completely evil.

    Again, I don't distingish the difference between humans and humanity. We
    all should carry ourselves as if our personal actions relect on humanity.
    The gheallie Sidhe should do the same because Cerilians do form a basis of
    assumptions on elves because of the actions of a few.

    >>I say give because the ones we label evil also
    >>inherit being the ones non-deserving of the forests.
    > Huh?

    By this I meant that if we say elves are acting evil then their claim to
    the forests should be cast aside. They are undeserving. Evil is
    undeserving of freedom, happiness, and life (in my opinion).

    > I'm inclined to say the GS kills them anyway, and the rest of the elves
    >have more individual reactions: you don't join the GS unless you want to
    >kill humans. However, I don't recall any concrete evidence one way or the
    >other because the only elven land in Rjurik, Lluabraight, doesn't border any
    >human nations (My Rjurik book is at home not here at school, so I might have
    >forgotten something), and I would say that the GS doesn't have very much
    >interaction with regular rjurik, and has to content itself with slaughtering
    >the minions of the white witch, goblins, and whatever lives in the
    >Giantdowns.

    I'm going to have to get this one soon. It would be interesting to see
    their reaction to a human culture that is more aligned to their way of
    thinking.

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  7. #27
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    At 01:16 AM 10/16/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    >So here's a possibility that I don't think anyone has addressed. Maybe the
    >elves' decline is inevitable. They simply don't produce enough in the
    face of
    >more successful species. Let's take an example from the Baruk Azhik
    sourcebook
    >in which Graybeard finds himself leading a race who are fighting what he
    believes
    >to be a losing battle against the Orogs. Humans have little or nothing to do
    >with this decline. They become involved only rarely in dwarven issues.
    In fact,
    >the dwarves separated themselves from the rest of Cerilia for centuries.
    Yet the
    >dwarves still decline. This is because dwarves reproduce so slowly in the
    face
    >of their military losses against the Orogs.

    Well, I do see similiarities. Dwarf=elf, orog=human :) I think elven
    decline is inevitable with a stronger race present. Goblins weren't able
    to decimate their lands as well as humans have. We don't really know if
    elves will decline in the presence of humans or without them. But if elves
    *think* humans are a direct reason why their race has declined, the call to
    for gheallie Sidhes is much more reasonable to them. Don't you think? But
    now your point is swaying me to the side that the gheallie Sidhe is a noble
    fight as the dwarves is. Both side are fighting against something they
    can't hope to win but that doesn't stop them from trying.

    >If this is true, then the elven racism against humans is even more displaced.

    I think you've made an argument for the gheallie Sidhe. Many of our heroes
    are those that stood against hopeless odds and didn't necessarily survive.
    It was the struggle. It is a racist view that humans are better than elves
    and they hate them for that. But if all these people that see UFOs are
    right and a new alien race comes to Earth that is better than we and wants
    our resources, will we act any differently? Fear, hopelessness,
    determination for survival are very powerful motivations.

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  8. #28
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    At 12:07 PM 10/16/98, Siebharrin / Arathorn wrote:
    >
    >I'd say they still defend their homelands. Whoever trespasses within elven
    >realms (who supports GS) has broken the laws, and sentenced according to
    >elven laws.
    >If I occupied your house for 1000 years... Would you still consider it yours?

    This is interesting because I had just saw a news item on the conflict of
    Israel and Palastinians yesterday. In it, a Palastine woman whos father's
    house had been taken from him 50 years ago, refuses to accept that her
    father's house belongs to Israelies (sp?). She obviously didn't own the
    house yet it was taken from her family. But the new owners didn't take it
    from her family, their government did. Whose claim is right and how do you
    sort that out without being unfair to the other?

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  9. #29
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    At 03:29 AM 10/16/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    >As a matter of fact, I don't think Imperialism is evil. I think you're
    confusing
    >imperialism with colonialism

    It seems evil at times, other times good. I think its just one of those
    things that just are. Ggood and evil can't be applied to it in a nice
    package. Not unlike our subject, it seems :)

    >I am going to claim to speak from a
    >moral standpoint, however.

    Danger, Will Robinson, Danger! I'd be wary of thinking I speak for
    morality. I still see the pros and cons on abortion and that issue has
    been around much longer for me to debate than the gheallie Sidhe and still
    no easy answers are found.

    >This whole debate does, however, beg the question that if the GS is NOT
    evil, then
    >what is?

    I'm beginning to think its what ever each of us decides it is. I think it
    would be a great morality test to throw against an elven character but I'm
    hesitant to do that because it really shows flaws of the alignment system.

    >Defending one's culture is not
    >self-defense, which is a justification for killing and, therefore, not
    murder.

    Well, I'm not unsure of that. We haven't ever had our culture attacked
    (except from within) but I dare say there are more than a few nations we
    could ask that have gone through that. Didn't the occupation of Indian by
    Britian bring out the Kali cult of Thuggies?

    >I'm going to need someone to make a more convincing case than the Native
    American
    >one, which I really don't see as an adequate parallel. The differences
    between
    >the Native Americans and Cerilian elves are just too drastic to support the
    >comparison.

    I've used the comparison (which I think fits well) in that one people
    greeted newcomers to their lands. Helped them, befriended them. Then the
    newcomers began taking from the other causing a backlash of enimity between
    them. It seems the ones that showed virtues to the other suffered for
    their goodness. The elves did befriend humans when they came to Cerilia
    and now humans control more of the land than the elves. I'm doubtful the
    parallels are accidental.

    >Even if it is an adequate comparison, I could very easily argue that Native
    >Americans have no higher moral grounds than any other people to begin
    slaughtering
    >civilians.

    Ah, the good ole missionaries that come to save the hethren from their evil
    ways :)

    >The Native Americans that people seem to find such a good comparison to
    elves,
    >cooperated with Europeans in exactly the way the elves did not. The elves
    >"thought they could all live in mutual enjoyment of the forest, with humans
    >respecting elven lands and the ELVES CAREFULLY AVOIDING HUMANS." Emphasis
    added.
    >Elves NEVER wanted to associate with humans.

    I got a totally different reading. Elves did associate with humans. The
    Atlas even acknowledges that humans betrayed the elves. In most cases
    where the gheallie Sidhe is talked about in the campaign set its not
    condemnation. Its rather matter-of-factly. It almost seems that its
    written with the idea that the formation of the gheallie Sidhe resides on
    the shoulders of both human and elf. Of course, recognizing that humans
    helped bring it about doesn't mean that they will submit to it. Or even
    accept the consequences of it.

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  10. #30
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Gheallie Sidhe and Alignment

    At 04:01 PM 10/16/98 +0100, einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:
    >
    >Hmm.. I seem to recall that the elves tried to befriend the humans coming..
    >In fact, Rhoube Manslayer were the humans best friend at first.

    This is my memory of it also. The betrayal of elven trust is a direct
    cause of the gheallie Sidhe. And blunts the evilness of it, to me.

    >There is a good way to get rid of GS: "Don't venture close to elven lands".
    >Then the GS wouldn't be able to recruit as many as they have done before.

    I think you're right. If humans stopped pushing against the elves, most
    would probably be content to remain in the homes they have left and the
    gheallie Sidhe would be left to those that have hatred as their only
    motivation. The more humans push the elves, the more the gheallie Sidhe
    will recruit. The catalyst is controlled by the humans. A regent that
    pushes the elves further is evil because his action kills his people.

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