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  1. #21
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    From: The Olesens
    >I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
    came across our
    >good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
    the elves of the
    >gheallie Sidhe evil?
    >
    >You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
    >
    I said yes, before, during, and after thinking about it, thanks (Since
    you specified).

    >Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
    devastated
    >several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
    betrayed the
    >elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
    as a whole is
    >evil, right?
    You could make a case for those specific humans that killed helpless
    elflings and betrayed alliances as being evil. That is not generalizable to
    humanity as a whole, this is a blatant use of induction (generalizing to a
    whole from some specific instances), which led to prejudice, bigotry, and
    then attempted genocide on the part of the GS, and is not logically
    supportable by any proof. This is historically the cause of much bigotry in
    real life, and is just as illogical no matter whether used in a fantasy
    setting or against some group of people in real life, I'll let you fill in
    your own examples.

    >But who defines good and evil?
    Good and evil are absolute, they don't need to be defined, just like lying
    vs telling the truth, the truth is not relative, neither is Good and Evil.

    >There are such things as just and unjust
    >causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
    Japanese bad
    >(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
    thier greedy
    >desires.
    This is what they did....

    > Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest
    of the
    >Pacific?
    That is the spin they tried to put on it. The reasons they tried to explain
    it with don't matter, the actions speak for themselves.

    >I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
    >is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.
    No, they are not. Someone may perceive something Evil as a "good"
    thing, but that doesn't make it good, that makes them, at least disturbed,
    if not downright Evil themselves. The same goes for a society. Every
    society probably would like to see itself as "good", but on an absolute
    scale, there have been some downright despicable, Evil groups of people
    floating around.
    On the GS in specific: they might not have started off as overtly Evil.
    Defense of your people is not evil by any measure, so when they were
    fighting and slaying invading human warriors, they were firmly in the right.
    When they found that not enough, and started slaughtering those who weren't
    a threat to them (like villagers and tradesmen), in an effort to drive
    humanity away, they became evil.
    So, there might be a good elf or two in the GS. But, they will probably
    not remain in it long, because the slaughter of innocent people will be
    pretty repulsive to them. The only way I could see a good elf remaining in
    it long term was if he was trying to reform it into more of a warrior group
    than a ravening pack of bandits.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

  2. #22
    Samuel Weiss
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    Galwylin wrote,

    >It caught my eye because it reminded me of the actions
    of some Native Americans in the United States. I don't know how everything
    can be so cut-n-dry because I don't see it that way. A few Native
    Americans slaughtered innocences as white men took their lands and
    destroyed their tribes. I don't think it was a good act but it was one
    born out of desperation and inability to find a way to work with them. In
    the end, a greater evil was done to them. I see the Sidhelien situation to
    be very similiar and the gheallie Sidhe to be a reaction to the lies,
    betrayals, theft of their land, and death they've recieved. Its a war
    between humans and elves. Evil touches every side in war.<

    Nietzsche wrote,

    "When fighting monsters, one beware lesta monster one become. And when
    looking in to the Abyss, be careful because the Abyss looks also into you."

    Let me understand your point. Because someone did Evil to you and yours, it
    is OK for you to do Evil to otherwise univolved people because of some
    realtion they have to the people who did Evil to you?
    OK, so a person who has been abused as a child grows up to be a child
    molestor. Your Uncle's neighbor was abused as a child. Therefore, it is OK
    for me to kill you, because a relative of yours lives next to a person, who
    suffered the same as this other guy, who became an Evil piece of filth.
    Wow, cool. Hey, By those standards, I could go out and kill just about
    anyone and still be a Good and righteous person.
    Have I yet made it clear that this is ridiculous and wrong?
    Perhaps this will help,
    NEWSFLASH!
    Bombing of Hirshoima and Nagasaki were Evil!
    Destruction of cities by aerial bombing violated treaties and constituted a
    War Crime!
    The slaughter of millions of Americans by the United States Government was
    genocidal and Evil!
    The internment of citizens of japanese descent in the United States during
    WWII was Evil!
    I don't give a flip who rights the freaking history, Evil is still Evil.
    Writing such lies is someone else's crime. Believing them would be mine.

    Samwise

  3. #23
    Trizt
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    BenandAmy (xanadu@pdq.net) wrote:

    - ->> Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the
    humans
    - -> devastated
    - ->> several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
    - -> betrayed the
    - ->> elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then
    humanity
    - -> as a whole is
    - ->> evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
    just
    - -> and unjust
    - ->> causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View).
    - -> Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
    - -> that I'll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
    - -> well have a good alignment and view their acts as "righteous
    - -> judgement"--much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
    - -> exterminating a gnoll war camp.

    One solution about the alignment could be to divide it into subgroups as eg.
    "they-alignment", "we-alignment" and "I-alignment". So the "elves" could be
    they-alignment: NE, we-alignment: LG. But as every change to rules does this
    demand alot of chnges on other stuff as Magical items/spells which changes
    alignemnts (which alignment will they affect and how).

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    --------------------
    E-Mail: trizt@iname.com URL1: http://home.bip.net/trizt/
    ICQ# : 13696780 URL2: http://www.ukko.dyn.ml.org/~trizt/
    Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel:
    #Opers
    MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
    --------------------
    OS : AmigaOS 3.1 / openBSD 2.3 CPU: PPC603e/160Mhz & MC68040/25Mhz
    --------------------

  4. #24
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    Samuel Weiss wrote:

    > (Oh, and if anyone feels offended about my making the example direct and
    > personal, too bad. Justifying Evil because it is someone's "POV" is
    > extremely offensive to me, and should be to any normal person. Yes, it is
    > "just" a game. But it becomes continually obvious that many people project
    > these beliefs onto the real world, they simply haven't acted upon them yet.
    > I say again, if you believe it is all POV, get help now. it's not.)

    Is it just me or does anybody else out there think this kind of casual disregard
    for other people's opinions is EVIL!?! :)

    Gary

  5. #25
    BenandAmy
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    You keep trying to bring this down to an individual level and its
    not. Its a war between cultures and cultures rarely have alignments so
    completely good or evil that they are clear to see. Alignments in AD&D are
    based on actions. The gheallie Sidhe is an action that hasn't been
    completed yet. Taken on an individual basis, the gheallie Sidhe is evil.
    If it saves the elves from extinction, then elven history will probably
    record it as good. Good because of what it accomplished on a cultural view.

    This has been a Galwylin® Production

    >>>>>>>>This is what I meant by the difference between "individual"
    alignment and "political" alignment.
    Thanx Galwylin.

  6. #26
    Samuel Weiss
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    Galwylin wrote,

    >No, that's not my point. My point is that evil done in the gheallie Sidhe
    will probably not be recognized as evil until history is written.<

    Stuff and nonsense. Next you will be claiming, or rather denying, that this
    also means until there has been a trial and a guilty verdict, no crime has
    been comitted.

    >Its a war between cultures and cultures rarely have alignments so
    completely good or evil that they are clear to see.<

    Actually, it can be quite easy to judge a culture Good or Evil, and much
    harder to judge an individual. If on person hates all of group X because one
    member of group X once attacjed them it is somewhat understandable. If all
    members of culture Y hate all members of group X because some jackoff with a
    silly mustache tells them it is OK to, then you have a severe disfunction
    that goes well beyond the individual, and is one serious clue that a society
    is totally out of whack.
    Further, if your point is valid, it should apply onboth the small scale as
    well as the large. If it is wrong for an individual to take savage,
    sickening personal revenge on all and sundry based on warped logic, and
    personal slights, it is of course all right for his culture to do so.
    Similarly, if a culture ordains genocide, how will it be able to deny an
    individual their "right" to commit mass murder on any sort of moral grounds?
    No, it is still a question of whether you think it OK for any person or
    group to decide inidividually or en masse to commit acts of murder and other
    atrocities and then justify their actions some third party annoyed them
    first.

    >If it saves the elves from extinction, then elven history will probably
    record it as good. Good because of what it accomplished on a cultural
    view.<

    Not in the least. It means it was beneficial to the Elves. It would be Evil
    when it was done, it would be Evil after it was finished.
    Once again, so if i head on out and commit genocide, because it helps my
    people in the long run, it was really Good all along? Guess what, that was
    Pol Pot's argument for slaughtering his own people. And Mao Tse Tung's.
    And while Pol Pot was overthrown and histroy now records the Killing Fields
    as Evil, the Chinese Government refuses to accept Mao's part in the Cultural
    Revolution to this day. So other psychopaths and dictators think you
    are/were a great guy. Some recommendation.

    Kariu wrote,

    >It's war.....an elf can't afford to be nice...because to an immortal
    elf...that 15 years it takes for a new born to pick up an axe...is just a
    few minutes or hours...to you and me......<

    See that part where you say, "can't afford to be nice"? I guess that means
    they are Evil huh?

    Samwise

  7. #27
    Samuel Weiss
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    >Samuel Weiss wrote:
    >Galwylin wrote,
    >
    >>No, that's not my point. My point is that evil done in the gheallie Sidhe
    >will probably not be recognized as evil until history is written.<
    >
    >Stuff and nonsense. Next you will be claiming, or rather denying, that this
    >also means until there has been a trial and a guilty verdict, no crime has
    >been comitted.

    Hello? Do you even read what you respond to?? See that word up there that
    starts with an 'r'? That's r-e-c-o-g-n-z-e-d. One of the meanings is to
    admit a knowledge of.<

    Hello, do you even think about what you are writing before you write it?
    Obviously you give very little thought to some of the things you put down
    otherwise you wouldn't. You see, admiting a knowledge of also implies
    admitting to oneself that something is wrong. But since this philosphy of
    nothing ever being wrong because one person thinks it might be right is what
    keeps being pushed to deny that anything might be Evil, I guess that concept
    is beyond you.

    >Can you name one culture that is completely good? I've seen you name some
    that were evil so if its so simple, name the other side.<

    Another generally simple concept that seems to have eluded you is that while
    Evil is easy for humans to achieve, Good is not. And perhaps humanity has
    never achieved such a state. I am only familiar enough with European
    cultures to know if any have achieved a state of Good, and none come to
    mind. At best, they manage to be lawful Neutral (or the equivalent).

    >It doesn't matter if the culture condones genocide if they say killing is
    wrong on an individual scale.<

    Yes it does. It is called "hypocrisy". "It is OK for us to do this to them,
    or we leaders to tell you do something, but none of you can make such
    decisions on your own."

    >Look at the history of the church that preached killing is a sin then
    sanctified the Crusades.<

    And the Church at that ti me was quite venal, and more than a little Evil.

    > If killing is condemned on an individual level then that should be true
    on the cultural one as well according to you.<

    And according to that church mentioned above. But hey, let's ignore that
    right now so no facts will interfere.

    >But human groups don't operate like that.<

    Yes, but we aspire to. And that is what we call Good.

    >And I'm not ready to admit that every institution that has existed is evil
    because it didn't follow your logic.<

    Well seeing as you wish to absolve everyone of guilt forever because you
    feel unfit to pass judgement on them, I will also allow you not to pass
    judgemnet on me and completely ignore this violation you have commited of
    your sacred precepts. Feel free not to feel guilty for judging me when you
    can not condemn mass murderers.
    I always find it very interesting that those who can not bring themselves to
    call anything Evil always find it so easy to tell me I must be wrong. Very
    baffling.

    >When you're surrounded by evil, all you can do is evil.<

    But earlier you denied this,

    >>Let me understand your point. Because someone did Evil to you and yours,
    it
    >is OK for you to do Evil to otherwise univolved people because of some
    >realtion they have to the people who did Evil to you?

    No, that's not my point. <

    But that is what you have just said yet again. maybe you don't believe this,
    but it is what you keep writing. So either start reading what you write and
    considering the implications first, or deal with being taken at face value.
    If someone finds me to be a pompous moralistic ass, I consider that a
    compliment in comparison to what you are showing yourself to be.
    I repeat, you can pass judgement on me, but not on murderers. Wow.

    Samwise

  8. #28
    Shadewulf@aol.co
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    Greetings to All,
    I have been following the various discussions for some
    days now. The alignment debate is interesting, if not somewhat tense at times.
    I admit ot being puzzled, though, by some of the various points of view.
    It seems to me there are differing definitions of evil
    and culture here, and an assumption by some that seems, to me, be in error.
    This is creating conflict in the current debate, perhaps unnecessarily so. At
    this point, I would like to point out that I am not trying to offend or insult
    anyone. This is an open forum, and I am throwing in my half-pence's worth.
    The assumption that I am referring to is that one can
    judge any and all cultures by her/his own standards. This, to me, is
    incorrect. Diversity is present here, whether in real life or fantasy like BR,
    and there is no universal truth, no omnipotent reality that supercedes all. We
    are insiders who are trying to be on the outside speaking about those who are
    inside. People may believe otherwise, but there are others who will believe
    differently, whether it be philosophy, religion, science, or whatever else
    there may be. That is the nature of humanity, and in fantasy, I believe that
    also applies, esp. because of the sheer number of races involved.
    This does not mean we cannot discuss these things,
    just that perspective must be maintained, for "reality" (for lack of a better
    word) is perceived differently by each and every person. That is what makes us
    individuals.
    This is my input for now, and I hope no one takes this
    wrong, as I am a novice to all this sort of thing.
    Til later, all enjoy what you can.
    Shadewu
    lf

  9. #29
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    From: Galwylin
    >Are we talking about genocide here? Is the gheallie Sidhe genocide or a
    >movement to push humans out of Cerilia. Do the elves have plans to rid the
    >planet of humans?
    >
    The ghealliea sidhe kills humans because they are human. They might take
    a special pleasure in killing armed humans roaming their territory, but they
    also roam far and wide, inside their kingdoms and out, killing innocent
    people. They aren't trying to push the humans anywhere, they just want to
    kill them off.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

  10. #30
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    From: Shadewulf@aol.com
    >The assumption that I am referring to is that one can
    >judge any and all cultures by her/his own standards. This, to me, is
    >incorrect. Diversity is present here, whether in real life or fantasy like
    BR,
    >and there is no universal truth, no omnipotent reality that supercedes all.
    I have to disagree with this. This is POV/ diversity nonsense. Start
    with the assumption that some action is evil. If a culture accepts this
    action, does that make it good? No, that makes the _culture_ incorrect, in
    this regard at least, since we have already assumed that this action is
    evil!

    >we
    >are insiders who are trying to be on the outside speaking about those who
    are
    >inside. People may believe otherwise, but there are others who will believe
    >differently, whether it be philosophy, religion, science, or whatever else
    >there may be. That is the nature of humanity, and in fantasy, I believe
    that
    >also applies, esp. because of the sheer number of races involved.
    > This does not mean we cannot discuss these things,
    >just that perspective must be maintained, for "reality" (for lack of a
    better
    >word) is perceived differently by each and every person. That is what makes
    us
    >individuals.
    An individual can certainly believe anything he likes. However, he can
    also be completely wrong about morality, and therefore evil.
    Within the structure of the game, we do have an absolute scale of good
    and evil. The alignment system is set up this way on purpose. If we let
    everyone say that what they believed was correct, then there would be no
    evil on that chart at all! But, it measures on an absolute scale, because
    otherwise it is worse that useless ("You cast detect alignment on that
    villain right there? He's lawful good, he follows his own internal rules
    and logic when killing people, and only kills people that are in the way of
    his goals (and their families, to avoid retribution), he's really not that
    bad a guy.")


    > This is my input for now, and I hope no one takes
    this
    >wrong, as I am a novice to all this sort of thing.
    Dammit! Don't be so apologetic! I hate that! You never have to
    apologize for taking part in the discussion!

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

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