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  1. #11
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    At 07:40 PM 10/8/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    >You're right. Civilian casualties are much more prevalent than I
    portrayed in my
    >post. As you say, in ancient times when the distinction between civilian and
    >soldier was much more ill-defined, so killing one over the other was not as
    >distinctly defined. In the 20th century when front lines became very
    broad and
    >deep, including everything within the range of air power.

    There was a period where war was given some strange rules. Soldiers lined
    up, aimed their rifles, and fired into the enemy line. People would bring
    lawn chairs and have picnics while they watched the 'battle'. War became
    civilized. Then back to uncivilized. I don't know what our 'push botton'
    wars of today would be.

    >As for which moral system to use... well, I'd say use them all. What I
    mean by
    >that is that much of the morality that we use today is based on morality
    developed
    >thousands of years ago. Honestly, I don't see people having a higher moral
    >standard now than they did in the time of Socrates.

    Maybe not a higher moral but life isn't viewed the same way. Some cultures
    would make ammends to someone they offended by offering the life of a slave
    or even a child. I do hope that our standard are higher that the time of
    Socrates. I'm certain that women were still property then and slaves were
    owned. Neither had a right to participate in the Athenian democracy. And
    we get much of our morality from the Bible that once taught people to stone
    their children until the New Testament brought a religion based on
    pacifism. Then that would be corrupted by when a pope sanctioned war for
    the first time when turn the other cheek had always been so prevalent
    through the Christian religion. Not meaning to offend anyone but morality
    has always been in constant change that who can guess what the future view
    of our own time will be.

    At 09:31 PM 10/8/98 -0700, swords wrote:
    >
    >I think this still needs to be looked at from the elves point of view.

    Agreed.

    >For a better point of view look at Bosnia and Serbia the
    >people of that area have been fighting each other for several years now and
    >the origin of that war is several hundred years old.

    Even though that is does show humans have long memories, I still find that
    hard to understand.

    >In my last one I think I did talk myself in circles but I don't think the GS
    >are evil just the ones that are most noted such as Rhoube.

    An interesting comparison could be made of the NRA. Three children died
    recently because of them yet I'm positive the group isn't made up of
    totally evil people. The gheallie Sidhe is just as complex. We may never
    understand it but it would be a mistake to write it off as completely evil.
    Remember the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
    When do those good intentions become evil?

    At 02:45 AM 10/9/98 EDT, Shadewulf@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >Which is good, in my eyes, because we can view things in a different light,
    >and perhaps learn from the experience. I do not believe anyone is fully (note
    >that, please) capable of going outside oneself and trying to place oneself in
    >another's situation and say they are them, in the individual or plural
    sense.

    I'd agree with that. We can come away with an idea of why they feel and
    act as they do. But you can't completely abosrb a thought process. But
    it's not impossible to understand enough that you are able to convey some
    of that to an audience. Acting is based on that and I'm sure we've all
    seen example of bad acting where there is no idea of motivation of a
    character. But then, gaming isn't acting, is it?

    This has been a Galwylin® Production

    galwylin@airnet.net
    http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

  2. #12
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    Daniel caught a mistype of mine in a post made earlier. I had typed NRA
    when it should have been the IRA when talking about a recent event in Ireland.

    This has been a Galwylin® Production

    galwylin@airnet.net
    http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

  3. #13
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    At 06:36 AM 10/9/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    >I think what you are describing is definitely a shift in behavior, but I
    don't
    >think that's any change in morality.

    Sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree. Behavior is ruled by morality. A
    person that lived 1000 years ago would be shocked at today's morals. And
    most likely, we'd be shocked at some of theirs. I think you're looking at
    alignments correctly though. They are absolute. Good today was good
    yesterday. What's changed is the interpretation which is morality. The
    debate about the gheallie Sidhe (both sides making excellent points, I
    think) shows that morality is not absolute even to people living in the
    same society during the same times. Someone from a different society will
    probably see a different view of what is moral.

    This has been a Galwylin® Production

    galwylin@airnet.net
    http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

  4. #14
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    At 05:52 PM 10/9/98 EDT, DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >Point 1) Elves still see elven awnshegh as still "elven". So why not
    humans?

    Aren't the awnshegh a result of humans and their gods?

    >As for you village full of sleeping people and army point: Sure one is an
    >already assembled army, and the other is a _potential_ army. Get real. The
    >GS will fight the battles it can win.

    I think the only way to prove the gheallie Sidhe is not evil is to prove
    its at least noble in the eyes of the elves. I can understand the view of
    a potential threat but couldn't accept that an attack on a village is noble
    because its a fight they can win. There should be battles fought that they
    can't win.

    This has been a Galwylin® Production

    galwylin@airnet.net
    http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

  5. #15
    The Olesens
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
    good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
    gheallie Sidhe evil?

    You said yes, right? Before you think about it.

    Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans devastated
    several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and betrayed the
    elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity as a whole is
    evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just and unjust
    causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the Japanese bad
    (evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with thier greedy
    desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest of the
    Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US kill millions
    of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a civilized war
    (I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
    is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just my 2 ep.

    - -Andrew

  6. #16
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    At 03:38 PM 10/6/98 -0400, The Olesens wrote:
    >
    >I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
    >is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
    my 2 ep.

    This is a quote I picked up off the Mystara list made by Frank Mentzer. I
    thought some might find it interesting on the subject.

  7. #17
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    > I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
    > good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
    > gheallie Sidhe evil?
    >
    > You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
    >
    > Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans devastated

    I think we already touched on this topic a bit..some people (me being one
    of them) think that no matter what the reason, and "evil" act is an "evil"
    act. Kinda like them Christians using square bullets on the
    heathens..just because somehting is acceptable at the time or for a good
    reason doesn't make the act, or by extension, the person, and less evil
    for doing it.

    Sean

  8. #18
    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    >I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
    came across our
    >good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
    the elves of the
    >gheallie Sidhe evil?
    >
    >You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
    >
    >Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
    devastated
    >several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
    betrayed the
    >elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
    as a whole is
    >evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
    just and unjust
    >causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
    Japanese bad
    >(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
    thier greedy
    >desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
    the rest of the
    >Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
    kill millions
    >of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
    civilized war
    >(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
    here but my point
    >is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
    my 2 ep.
    >
    >-Andrew

    Not to mention the priests helping hands during the imperialism LOL
    Hey, the King of Belgium cut off hands in Congo with the priests
    blessings. Yet, priests were still viewed upon as 'good'.

    Siebharrin

  9. #19
    BenandAmy
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: The Olesens
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:18 PM
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Alignment (Again?!)


    >I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
    came across our
    >good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
    the elves of the
    >gheallie Sidhe evil?
    >
    >You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
    >
    >Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
    devastated
    >several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
    betrayed the
    >elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
    as a whole is
    >evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
    and unjust
    >causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
    Japanese bad
    >(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
    thier greedy
    >desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
    the rest of the
    >Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
    kill millions
    >of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
    civilized war
    >(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
    here but my point
    >is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
    my 2 ep.
    >
    >
    Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
    that I'll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
    well have a good alignment and view their acts as "righteous
    judgement"--much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
    exterminating a gnoll war camp. Go ahead and make them good or neutral.
    I think aligning oneself with a political group (like the Gheallie Sidhe
    or a nation, etc.) does not preclude any particular alignment. It all
    depends on what the character's perspective and experience in life is.

    Hope this helps!


    Ben

  10. #20
    Samuel Weiss
    Guest

    Alignment (Again?!)

    The Olesons (Andrew) wrote,

    >Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
    gheallie Sidhe evil?

    You said yes, right? Before you think about it.

    Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
    devastated
    several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
    betrayed the
    elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
    as a whole is
    evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
    and unjust
    causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
    Japanese bad (evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed
    many with thier greedy
    desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
    the rest of the Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires.
    Or did the US kill millions of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because
    they were too weak to fight a civilized war (I know they weren't weak). I
    know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point is, good and
    evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.<

    OK, first, the Japanese had no intention of sharing their technology and
    prosperity with anyone. They wanted more slaves to fuel their domestic
    prosperity and cared very little for what it cost any other peoples in
    wealth or lives. Was every single Japanese person completely corrupt because
    of this? No. But there was a breakdown in the morality of the people in
    charge of their nation, and as such, their government ordered very many Evil
    acts, and the people who carried those acts out were Evil.
    Start there, and get any ideas of a benevolent expansion out the way to
    start.
    Second, addressing this issue of human betrayal and such. Let us say that
    someone here had relatives who suffered at the hands of the Japanese during
    WWII. Let us say that person takes issue with what you wrote. Since you are
    "obviously" Evil to even think of writing about Japan's intentions in a good
    light, obviously that person is perfectly justified in heading on over and
    raping your wife and cutting your children into little pieces. In fact,
    while they are having such a good time, they can head on over to your
    brother's house and do the same with his family. And your sister's. And all
    your neighbor's, because hey, if they weren't as bad (Evil) as you, they
    wouldn't live next to you right?
    If you now understand why the Gheallie Sidhe is mostly Evil, and why POV has
    nothing to with Good and Evil then you understand. If not, I suggest
    counseling quickly before you begin acting on such beliefs.
    I will also repeat for those who don't get it, that good and bad are ALWAYS
    dependant upon POV. Those two are completely different from Good and Evil
    however. Someone can want something that is bad for me without being Evil.
    Someone can want something good for me without being Good.
    Now note, as I mentioned above, the Gheallie Sidhe is MOSTLY Evil. No doubt
    some members act to stop human encroachments without commiting atrocities of
    one stripe or another in the process. There has to be at least one anyway.
    But for me to walk outside tomorrow and murder a person of German descent
    because I am Jewish and Hitler was German and from my POV... is wrong
    morally and therefore Evil.
    Indeed, thinking about it further, what you have is a breakdown in logic.
    You are assuming:
    Human A = Evil.
    Human A = All Humans.
    All Humans = Evil.
    The second is a false assumption leading to a false conclusion. And, "But
    that's what I believe" is not an excuse, or an explanation. At best it is a
    mental disorder. (Sociopath or psychopath.) It is still Evil even then.

    Samwise
    (Oh, and if anyone feels offended about my making the example direct and
    personal, too bad. Justifying Evil because it is someone's "POV" is
    extremely offensive to me, and should be to any normal person. Yes, it is
    "just" a game. But it becomes continually obvious that many people project
    these beliefs onto the real world, they simply haven't acted upon them yet.
    I say again, if you believe it is all POV, get help now. it's not.)

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