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  1. #11
    Tommy Ashton II
    Guest

    Paladins for Everyone (long)

    At 07:54 PM 9/23/98 -0400, you wrote:
    >In a message dated 9/23/98 3:10:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
    >Doug_Clutterbuck@bigpond.com writes:
    >
    >> Hmm, then how come you can have corrupt priests stealing from the temple
    >> coffers, killing their fellow worshippers, leading insurrections against
    >the
    >> regent, and this is only in the "good" churches. And yet after doing all
    >> these
    >> things, which you can only assume would be against the wishes of their
    god,
    >> they
    >> still seem to receive their spells.
    >Simple:
    >Not all clerics are of the god's choice... They can be faking their job,
    just
    >as a rogue with a good enough acting skill and with enough brawn could
    pose to
    >be a warrior. I doubt that the god would reward clerics that stole from him
    >and his temples powers, so these clerics pose as them, or even believe they
    >are clerics.
    Or they might be of another god posing as this one. In one of the
    sourcebooks there is a temple somewhere where the high priest of I believe
    a church of Nesirre (sp?) is actually getting his spells from Eloele.
    T
    >************************************************* **************************
    >>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

  2. #12
    GrimtoothX@aol.co
    Guest

    Paladins for Everyone (long)

    In a message dated 9/23/98 3:10:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
    Doug_Clutterbuck@bigpond.com writes:

    > Hmm, then how come you can have corrupt priests stealing from the temple
    > coffers, killing their fellow worshippers, leading insurrections against
    the
    > regent, and this is only in the "good" churches. And yet after doing all
    > these
    > things, which you can only assume would be against the wishes of their god,
    > they
    > still seem to receive their spells.
    Simple:
    Not all clerics are of the god's choice... They can be faking their job, just
    as a rogue with a good enough acting skill and with enough brawn could pose to
    be a warrior. I doubt that the god would reward clerics that stole from him
    and his temples powers, so these clerics pose as them, or even believe they
    are clerics.

  3. #13
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Paladins for Everyone (long)

    Binagran wrote:

    > > Cuiraecen's portfolio is storms and conflict. This can be interpreted as
    > > either defense of the weak, or "war for war's sake". Both of those are
    > > right out of the BoP.
    > > If Heirarch Terad is belligerent, and eliminated any opponents to his
    > > temple, he's doing a darn good job. His temple is strong, he has brought
    > > many worshippers to Cuiraecen's fold, as the DM, I would say Cuiraecen is
    > > pretty pleased with the work this guy is doing.
    > > The priests don't all have to be goody two-shoes. Both Haelyn and
    > > Cuiraecen support and GIVE SPELLS TO evilly aligned priests, who are
    > > properly devout and worship them. They do support politicking and religious
    > > conflict. It keeps the faith strong, and spreads the base of power of their
    > > major followers, the temple regents. A priest of Haelyn, who led an
    > > inquisition type action in the lands he controls, all in the name of Haelyn
    > > and in the proper form, would be evil, and probably a terrible person, but
    > > he would receive spells.
    > >
    > > Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    >
    > My point being, how could the LE priest of Haelyn (or the CE priest of
    > Cuiraecen) possibly be considered more of an embodiment of their particular
    > faiths than the LG (CG) Paladin.

    A while back I made an analogy about how the old alignment charts are two
    dimensional, portrayed on a X, Y scale with law/chaos on one axis and good/evil on
    the other. The problem as I see it is that there are really a lot more
    motivational factors on behavior than those portrayed in alignment. Religion is
    one. You have to put the chart in three dimensions with a Z axis that portrays
    another motivation. I think there are literally dozens of other motivations that
    would alter the aforementioned chart and would make the original alignment
    characteristics rather incidental to religious faith. You could have
    religious/secularist in there, violent/pacifist, political/apolitical,
    introverted/extroverted (and the other Myer's-Brigg's Personality Test traits as
    well) ambitious/content, sane/insane, conservative/liberal, etc. that would change
    the way a character was perceived in the game.

    Alignment is really not a very good thing to base behavior on, which is why a lot
    of role-playing games don't have it. A character could be of lawful good
    alignment and still be a real jerk. Likewise, you could sip tea with a chaotic
    evil character and have a very pleasant conversation about the aesthetics of
    different flowers.

    The point in this is that, as I see it, the gods are even less tied to alignment.
    They are "powers" who embody a particular natural trait or human ideal. Be it
    winter, justice, battle, fire, the moon, art, or wealth. What is the sun's
    alignment? Is justice lawful good, lawful neutral or lawful evil? Is it even
    lawful or is it neutral? Is fire good or evil? Is art chaotic or lawful? I'm
    sure we could all express dozens of opinions on these subjects, but I think the
    truth is that there is no answer to these questions because alignment is not
    really applicable to them. They exist outside of alignment.

    A priest of Haelyn, therefore, could be his embodiment and still be lawful evil in
    that he is embodying the god's aspect as "the lord of courage, justice, and
    chivalry, and the patron of kings and warriors." These things are typically
    described as being lawful good, but I could easily make an argument that a lawful
    evil character could portray them just as accurately, and maybe even better in
    many ways.

    Gary

  4. #14
    HSteiner1@aol.co
    Guest

    Paladins for Everyone (long)

    In einer eMail vom 23.09.98 08:13:41, schreiben Sie:



    I think priests SHOULD be the embodiment of their faith in the sense that they
    have a stronger connection to their god than any paladin. Just look at their
    spells, this is the power of the gods, direct by the priest; much more power
    than
    that of a paladin. And in BirthRight, every priest (thank god, there are only
    specialty priests in BirthRight) get some nifty special abilities to be more
    like his special god.
    And i think not, that some outright evil priests of a good faith invalidates
    that,
    this only means, the gods dont execute directly misbehaving "childs", some
    kind of laissez-fair-politic.
    But the backbone of my argument is, paladins of EVERY faith should be
    WARRIORS foremost, they should not customized till they are a exact
    replica of their got. This is not their task, their task is, to protect (and
    expand) their faith with fire and sword.
    I´m basically against the perception a paladin of Eloele should be a thief.



    Aedric Maeras
    Lord Mage of Roesone
    Undead Master


    ######################################
    Holger Steiner
    Programmer & Object-Technology Consultant
    HSteiner1@aol.com
    http://members.aol.com/HSteiner1
    Only the code gets executed, not the intentions...
    ######################################

  5. #15
    Sindre Berg
    Guest

    Paladins for Everyone (long)

    HSteiner1@aol.com wrote:

    > In einer eMail vom 23.09.98 08:13:41, schreiben Sie:
    >
    > Hmm, then how come you can have corrupt priests stealing from the
    > temple
    > coffers, killing their fellow worshippers, leading insurrections
    > against the
    > regent, and this is only in the "good" churches. And yet after doing
    > all
    > these
    > things, which you can only assume would be against the wishes of
    > their god,
    > they
    > still seem to receive their spells.
    >
    > For a pretty good example, check out the Hierarch Taril Herad of the
    > Chosen
    > of
    > Khirdai in Aftane. This guy ruthlessly eliminated any and all
    > opposition to
    > his
    > order, supports the "suspect" rulership of the Red Kings of Aftane.
    >
    > Now if you can explain to me how this particular priest is the
    > supreme
    > embodiment of his particular faith then good for you.
    >
    > As a side not, I think in the particular religions of Cuiraecen and
    > Haelyn
    > (both
    > being very militant orders) the paladin of each faith would probably
    > be seen
    > as
    > being the ultimate symbol of the faith. Brave, Pious, Strong, etc,
    > many
    > things
    > you might not find in the general temple clergy.
    >
    > Binagranataboclanorane
    > >>
    >
    > I think priests SHOULD be the embodiment of their faith in the sense
    > that they
    > have a stronger connection to their god than any paladin. Just look at
    > their
    > spells, this is the power of the gods, direct by the priest; much more
    > power
    > than
    > that of a paladin. And in BirthRight, every priest (thank god, there
    > are only
    > specialty priests in BirthRight) get some nifty special abilities to
    > be more
    > like his special god.
    > And i think not, that some outright evil priests of a good faith
    > invalidates
    > that,
    > this only means, the gods dont execute directly misbehaving "childs",
    > some
    > kind of laissez-fair-politic.
    > But the backbone of my argument is, paladins of EVERY faith should be
    > WARRIORS foremost, they should not customized till they are a exact
    > replica of their got. This is not their task, their task is, to
    > protect (and
    > expand) their faith with fire and sword.
    > I´m basically against the perception a paladin of Eloele should be a
    > thief.
    >

    I'm not too much into this Paladin thread, but I do have some opinions
    on Paladins of Eleole. Or rather the lack of such.. I beleive the whole
    concept of Paladin is he is supposed to be "flashy" in some way, or
    rather attract attention to himself. Whatever a paladin really is he is
    supposed to bring people under his God's faith with sword or some other
    skill, but the whole point is people are SUPPOSED to notice him (or her
    BTW). And all this leads to my point...a theif, master or not is not
    supposed to attract attention to himself, rather the opposite. After all
    Eleole temples are hidden (well almost at least). She is after all the
    Goddess of Night, i.e. skulking around in the shadows.

    > Aedric Maeras
    > Lord Mage of Roesone
    > Undead Master
    >
    > ######################################
    > Holger Steiner
    > Programmer & Object-Technology Consultant
    > HSteiner1@aol.com
    > http://members.aol.com/HSteiner1
    > Only the code gets executed, not the intentions...
    > ######################################

    Sindre

    Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

    www.uio.no/~sindrejb

  6. #16
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Paladins for Everyone (long)

    From: Matthew Speer
    >This brings up some larger issues about AD&D in general and classes
    >specifically. They are too structured. I haven't used S&P but I would
    >think that those rules go some way in addressing how to have a unique
    >character such as a Paladin of Eloele who is a Rogue and not a fighter.
    >
    It is a game, it has to have structure, otherwise it would simply be
    unplayable.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

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