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  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thomas_Percy+Feb 17 2005, 11:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thomas_Percy @ Feb 17 2005, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Feb 16 2005, 05:44 PM
    I have to ask how familiar you are with the 2nd ed BR rules?* This is important becasue most of my responses assume a knowledge of them.
    I think my personal skill at rules does not matter.
    As I understand, You are a new rules maker.
    You can change everything You want to make Brt better, compact, simple and full of new possibilities for PCs.
    If old rules limit Your imagination, ignore them.
    I think one of the greatest victories of D&D 3E over AD&D is to eliminate most things incoherent, complicated and everything what limits our imagination.

    Imho conversation about "what X wrote on the page Y at the accessory Z" is a waste of time, because it&#39;s a past, and You are the man who makes the future of Brt.

    We are thinking Brt is the best campaign ever. But Brt is a bankrupt. So Your task is to answer "why Brt is a bankrupt", remove old mistakes and create new quality. [/b][/quote]
    I have to disagree.

    It is not my job to convince you something is not bankrupt dince that will always be a matter of opinion, it is only my job to say why something was chosen to be the way it was or to clarify the intent in what was written (BRCS wise). When the sanctioning votes come up is when people say yeah or neigh to the whole.

    Check out the thread in the FAQ section where it lays out the goals and philosophy of the BRCS project.

    That is what we are trying to keep to.

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=2340

    This is not a brand new campaign like Eberron. This is a revision to an existing campaign that most of us loved when it was first introduced and we are here because of that affection. And this is why I brought up the question of how much you knew of the source material since that is what shaped the setting and the "flavor" and "feel" of that shape is what we are trying to maintain. Not all of that made it into the BRCS so some of the history of the setting was missing and that is what needs clarification, IMO.

    Now I thought I went through your previous comments with the intent of saying why it was that way not with saying I agreed or not. In fact most of the time I said that the issues you had brought up definitely needed clarification.

    There have been a lot of dissenting opinions on whether or not this should be a straight up conversion (ignoring 3.5 mechanics) of the 2nd ed game which is why the development team came up with those design philosophies and have tried to keep true to them.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #32
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Thanks for explanation, I will read this FAQ thread gladly.
    I&#39;m a newbie here, so sorry for some not especially fresh for experienced members ideas.

  3. #33
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thomas_Percy@Feb 17 2005, 01:55 PM
    Thanks for explanation, I will read this FAQ thread gladly.
    I&#39;m a newbie here, so sorry for some not especially fresh for experienced members ideas.
    Thee is no problem with being new - I didn&#39;t mean to come off as condescending either.

    It is probably a good idea if the frame of reference is explained when first chiming in though. What I mean is that there are many people who have been playing BR since it first came out, read all the boooks (what was the number 6 I think or in that ballpark) and have done extensive house-ruling over the years.

    We have discovered over some of the past "heated" discussion that some peole have been using house-rules so long they forgot they were in fact house rules and never in the official 2nd ed material. So going back to the source is important in trying to figure out what or why things work the way they did.

    But it is also important to realize that while the source material is indeed important it is also rife with editorial errors and inconsistencies. BR was one of the worst products issued by TR quality-wise, since it was the last "new" setting that TSR isssued prior to going belly up and IIRC the only "new" issued after BR was a revison to Dark Sun.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #34
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Feb 16 2005, 11:31 AM
    Realistically, a source is destroyed because the population increase in the province polutes it. For example, a wizard in a 4/3 province may have a source holding in a forest near on of the major settlements. if the province increases in size, then it is likely that the people of this settlement will need more wood, resrouces etc, so this holding is the most likely one to be destroyed, instead of one located in the wilds of the province somewhere.
    The sources can automaticaly regrown (respawn) like a plants (or fey creatures) in the deserted area.
    The sources can move like a living creature made of pure raw magic who wants to live always in the wildest place of province. It can be even the creature itself, eg. ancient dragon, a balor. In my upcoming campaign one of PCs will be the source.
    Some (the strongest) sources can be impregnable to ANY destruction, for example Rhuannoch oak-tower. You know: hardness XXX, SR XXX and so on.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Today I sat down and went through the cleric spell list and came up with a good 15 or so divine realm spells more or less directly converted from personal spells - the majority of them are unit-enhancing (wards and protections mainly), something that ends up looking like a great set of counters to all that arcane battle magic...also a lot more summoning and greater necromancy, and some extra higher level spells to even out the list of possibilities at all levels.

    In fact, what the heck...here&#39;s the list (Word) to download if anyone&#39;s interested. It&#39;s not exhaustive, but it&#39;s a pretty decent list for a range of possibilities. I like having more choices than a character could possibly know, it makes choosing which spells to learn that much more tense and difficult.

  6. #36
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    Resist energy gives a bonus on an individual level, but not unit level. Maybe give ignore 1 hit from energy attack, followed by 2 then 3 at higher levels.

    Greater legion of death. What if the mummy rot instead of giving an extra hit the following round instead inflicted 1 hit each following week, and disallowed natural healing. Healing magic would still work, but does not remove the rot. IF the unit stays in a 5th level or higher temple for a week, the rot will be removed. Presumably their would be enough priests or paladins to cast remove disease.

    Would Aura of Righteousness SR protect against realm spells?

    Wrath of Nature requires a source, but it is a druid spell? If you are allowing druids access to sources the monthly effects don&#39;t quite work. Excluding elves, no realm that has a 5-6 level source could have a holding type which earns more than 2 GB&#39;s. To have a level 7 source precludes any development, so a -1 to province level would be meaningless.

    Legion of heroes calls upon outsiders. No where have I read that the gods have these outsiders, or are in any way associated with them. What if the legion of heroes was comprised of the greatest heroes of that god, like the horn of ???? from the Wheel of Time series. So one summoned by and Andurias priest would probably call forth the greatest Andurians of the Empires history, led by the first Roele himself.

    All in all I really like your new realm spells, though I haven&#39;t really looked at balance issues.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    New BRCS Anuire due to the low levels of spellcasters and small quantity of magical items is helpless when some PC summons even medium demon/devil/shadow/etc. with the order to destroy armies at garrirons and nobles at homes.
    "Single hero with single magical blade in the kingdom tracking a succubus at horse".
    And now we have new realm spells allowing to summon more outsiders & undeads.
    Only hope is a realm spells are an alternative to PHB way of magic defense of kingdoms.

    Nevertheless, as a fan of medium-magic Brt thank You, Osprey, for good and useful work.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Resist energy gives a bonus on an individual level, but not unit level. Maybe give ignore 1 hit from energy attack, followed by 2 then 3 at higher levels.
    Good catch. Yeah, 1/2/3 energy soaking works.

    Greater legion of death. What if the mummy rot instead of giving an extra hit the following round instead inflicted 1 hit each following week, and disallowed natural healing. Healing magic would still work, but does not remove the rot. IF the unit stays in a 5th level or higher temple for a week, the rot will be removed. Presumably their would be enough priests or paladins to cast remove disease.
    Hmmm...there&#39;s a real good reason for that extra hit of damage...mummy rot&#39;s initial incubation period is only one minute. Then, Whammo&#33; big CON drop. I figured that + the blow of a mummy would probably kill most any soldier struck...so very few soldiers will actually survive long enough for long-term incubation to be an issue. Mummy rot doesn&#39;t mention it being a contagious disease, only a mummy can spread it, so it didn&#39;t make sense for the entire unit to become afflicted with the disease. I&#39;d just use it as a plot device where certain survivors against mummies contract mummy rot and must deal with the effects...gross.

    Would Aura of Righteousness SR protect against realm spells?
    I would imagine that it would protect the unit from the effects of an evil realm spell, yes. Assuming that spell can be resisted by spell resistance in the first place.
    I don&#39;t see realm spells as typically being more potent/intense than normal spells - it is their scope: area/people affected and duration being the two immense expansions over normal spells.

    Legion of heroes calls upon outsiders. No where have I read that the gods have these outsiders, or are in any way associated with them. What if the legion of heroes was comprised of the greatest heroes of that god, like the horn of ???? from the Wheel of Time series. So one summoned by and Andurias priest would probably call forth the greatest Andurians of the Empires history, led by the first Roele himself.
    Actually, I&#39;ve seen it mentioned several times that outsiders are normally seen only when they are summoned. But they do get summoned, which means they are known of, so why wouldn&#39;t the gods have some outsiders as exalted servants, champions, generals, etc?

    My concept was that outsiders serve every god of Cerilia. While the baseline spirits of the faithful are simply shades, those who are raised up, either through faithful service in life or as a spirit, evolve into higher (more advanced) forms of being, which might equate fairly well to some of the various infernal or celestial beings.

    Roele himself might be that bad-assed Solar leading the legion of heroes summoned by the great Archprelate of the Impregnable Heart (not the one from RoE, of course - this is a 17th+ level one). The Solar could easily resemble Roele in his last incarnation, but there should be (IMO) a strong transformative element too, so it&#39;s more like a resemblance than an old hero reincarnated.

    That was the concept I had for the angelic and fiendish figures populating the courts of the Gods, anyways. The less human-ish outsiders (like archons) I figure are either more human in appearance, or just not all that appropriate. But angels and eladrins fit pretty well in almost any Euro-based fantasy setting IMO.

    Wrath of Nature requires a source, but it is a druid spell? If you are allowing druids access to sources the monthly effects don&#39;t quite work. Excluding elves, no realm that has a 5-6 level source could have a holding type which earns more than 2 GB&#39;s. To have a level 7 source precludes any development, so a -1 to province level would be meaningless.
    Meaningless? No...there are provinces in Cerilia published in 2e with 9 levels of source potential, making a 2/7 province quite possible. Swamps have 8, so 1/7 for them... a swamp with dragon bones or a magic cave or something could easily be 9, 10, or more if a DM dared...

    I also have major rivers adding +1 to the source potential to any provinces for which they form a major border...as they were originally meant to, I think, but somehow this got glossed over in the mapmaking process.

    Think outside the box[ed set].

    I&#39;m fairly certain that the 3.5 BRCS will be using Druids as source regents and/or temple regents, but not ley line users, which will limit them to local realm magic just like clerics and temples.

    Wrath of Nature was one spell I decided was silly if based on a temple, since it&#39;s like hitting a month-long ritual self-destruct button on the temple&#39;s province. But clerics do have Earthquake and Control Weather as spells (2 of the 3 base spells for Wrath of Nature - Whirlwind was the other one)...talk to your DM if you want such a thing. :P

    Source as requirement seemed most appropriate, it is the pure force of nature which MUST be present to enact such powerful control over the elements. The stronger nature is, the more powerful its wrath can be. Folks living in a 2/7 province had darn well better respect the power of nature...

    Wrath of Nature was meant to be one of these spells:
    "Do not, repeat, do NOT defy, offend, or otherwise piss off the Archdruid&#33; You don&#39;t want to see him when he&#39;s angry..."

    Next up...the Incredible Hulk spell (forget Tenser)&#33; :lol:

    New BRCS Anuire due to the low levels of spellcasters and small quantity of magical items is helpless when some PC summons even medium demon/devil/shadow/etc. with the order to destroy armies at garrirons and nobles at homes.
    "Single hero with single magical blade in the kingdom tracking a succubus at horse".
    And now we have new realm spells allowing to summon more outsiders & undeads.
    Only hope is a realm spells are an alternative to PHB way of magic defense of kingdoms.
    Actually, the new BRCS/Atlas has all of the original NPC&#39;s at equal and slightly higher levels than the original 2e Birthright.

    Also, I pity the game that tries to keep everything (including PC&#39;s) around these levels, rather than allowing PC&#39;s and NPC&#39;s to advance and evolve. As successful regents, they should also advance their realms too. As good competition, they&#39;ll inspire their rivals (or those who survive, at least) to develop more, too - if only the PC&#39;s are levelling up, they will quickly be without challenges, and the stagnant world around them will be painfully transparent. Not too exciting and dynamic IMO.

    So most of my designs for BR are built to include the full range of levels and power potentials- it&#39;s not enough to design a world for only low-mid levels, it&#39;s important to provide a framework and guidelines (and some good concrete examples) for development and PC/NPC leveling through a full heroic campaign. 3.5e D&D is built around a 20 level progression - a conversion project should account for that, along with possibilities of the beyond [epic].

  9. #39
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM
    Also, I pity the game that tries to keep everything (including PC&#39;s) around these levels, rather than allowing PC&#39;s and NPC&#39;s to advance and evolve. As successful regents, they should also advance their realms too. As good competition, they&#39;ll inspire their rivals (or those who survive, at least) to develop more, too - if only the PC&#39;s are levelling up, they will quickly be without challenges, and the stagnant world around them will be painfully transparent. Not too exciting and dynamic IMO.
    Is it means that Rhoubhe Manslayer, The Gorgon or The Magian, ancient creatures with the power to do everything what they like with piteous rulers like Avan (with his 3-rd level wizard), do nothing for milenia, because there were no PCs around?
    The regard, even admiration for enemies is a important thing in a building of Bad Guys, especially long-time enemies.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Is it means that Rhoubhe Manslayer, The Gorgon or The Magian, ancient creatures with the power to do everything what they like with piteous rulers like Avan (with his 3-rd level wizard), do nothing for milenia, because there were no PCs around?
    The regard, even admiration for enemies is a important thing in a building of Bad Guys, especially long-time enemies.
    Definitely. And once the PC&#39;s start becoming powerful and successful, they will also start gaining the notice and attention of those super-villains...who might even take a few notes.

    IMC, the Gorgon watched certain regents becoming incredibly successful through strong rulership and the building of Wonders - and ended up emulating certain ones (like building his own version of a war academy, the Klling Fields of Kal-Saitherek). He&#39;s enjoying this fresh infusion of Anuirean power - it will be the first good challenge he&#39;s faced in over five centuries&#33;

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