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  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 24 2004, 04:18 PM
    As for dragon CRs, they're somewhat different from those of other creatures. The dragon's basic CR assumes that the party will have some time to prepare for an encounter with it and that they won't get into random fights with them. At least that's the official line about them.
    Which means that fighters should have the appropriate boosting spells in place before engaging them.
    Why is that? I think the matter of CR is that it is very much based on the same set of circumstances, and I don't see why it would be more reasonable for the characters to stumble across a astral deva in some random dungeon without any preparation.

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Don E+Aug 25 2004, 08:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Don E @ Aug 25 2004, 08:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mark_Aurel@Aug 24 2004, 04:18 PM
    As for dragon CRs, they&#39;re somewhat different from those of other creatures. The dragon&#39;s basic CR assumes that the party will have some time to prepare for an encounter with it and that they won&#39;t get into random fights with them. At least that&#39;s the official line about them.
    Which means that fighters should have the appropriate boosting spells in place before engaging them.
    Why is that? I think the matter of CR is that it is very much based on the same set of circumstances, and I don&#39;t see why it would be more reasonable for the characters to stumble across a astral deva in some random dungeon without any preparation. [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t know exactly why it is the way it is. I can speculate, however, that part of the reason is that dragons are supposed to be the most elite monsters in D&D. In many cases, the same standard for CRs has been adapted for unique and powerful monsters, like archfiends. The assumption remains the same - that parties are generally supposed to able to prepare for the encounter, reducing the advantages of the monster somewhat, buffing up fighters, or preparing specific attacks keyed to the monster&#39;s vulnerabilities.

    So let&#39;s say the two monsters in question have roughly the same capability against the wizard in the group. Now compare the martial aspect of the fight and one finds that the dragon far outstrips the astral deva in most aspect like hp and attack capability.
    I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re trying to complain about here. First you say that dragons are too weak against magic, and now they&#39;re too strong in combat? That devas are less of a challenge to a melee fighter that can catch up with it? Every monster can&#39;t be the exact same challenge to every class, or they&#39;d have identical stats. Devas have many magical and special abilities that dragons of their CR do not have. It requires a bit more finesse and skill on the DM&#39;s part to make the deva as effective a challenge as it should be, but it&#39;s certainly within the realm of possibility. Most of the deva&#39;s abilities are geared towards fighting evil as well. An evil party will no doubt have issues with things like the deva&#39;s at will holy smite, holy word, or its holy aura. Even against good creatures, the deva&#39;s blade barrier will inflict more damage than the mature adult black dragon&#39;s breath weapon, even if it&#39;s only usable once per day.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  3. #23
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    You know, the issue here is not whether a dragon is a fair challenge, all right? I only took what I had in my hands and filled up the gaps, correct? Now, can we solve this issue and forget the whole thing? If someone wants to buff up a dragon, that&#39;s easy, but it&#39;s the same as with salt: but only a little and no one will complain, but too much and most will complain... B)

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 25 2004, 07:31 PM
    I don&#39;t know exactly why it is the way it is. I can speculate, however, that part of the reason is that dragons are supposed to be the most elite monsters in D&D. In many cases, the same standard for CRs has been adapted for unique and powerful monsters, like archfiends. The assumption remains the same - that parties are generally supposed to able to prepare for the encounter, reducing the advantages of the monster somewhat, buffing up fighters, or preparing specific attacks keyed to the monster&#39;s vulnerabilities.
    I&#39;m not sure where you get this from , as I see this more as a matter of adjusting the EL of said encounter. If the dragon/archfiend ambushes he charaters bump up the EL, if the characters prepare an ambush reduce the EL.

    I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re trying to complain about here. First you say that dragons are too weak against magic, and now they&#39;re too strong in combat?
    Yes, in essence this is what I&#39;m not happy about when it comes to the dragons, in addition to the CR being a bit low. It is a matter of taste, but mine goes along the lines that dragons (and particularly in BR) are highly proficient users of magic, and should have magic as their strongest form of attack and defense. I agree that all monsters can&#39;t have the same strong and weak sides, but the dragon have IMO come out with the wrong weak side.

  5. #25
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 26 2004, 02:51 AM
    You know, the issue here is not whether a dragon is a fair challenge, all right?
    No, but it is an interesting issue what type of a challenge a dragon should be.

    I only took what I had in my hands and filled up the gaps, correct? Now, can we solve this issue and forget the whole thing?
    I also noticed that the AC has been reduced overall for the dragon, with especially the lower age categories coming out low. Is this intentional? I don&#39;t think this met by an equal increase in other abilities.

    The simplest thing would be to just use the formula for the red dragon, SR = CR +6. Keep it in line with the MM and nobody should complain.

  6. #26
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Actually, these have been calculated along and checked through with various issues taken into account, from Hit Dice to size and age categories; using CR as a guideline is a faulty way of designing monsters, especially so since you yourself has proven that things don&#39;t go along with CR. The table shows a remarkable pattern; just try to find out how it plays out and you will see what I mean...

    And the Cerilian dragon is identical to the blue dragon in terms of size-to-age categories and Hit Dice.

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 26 2004, 06:56 AM
    Actually, these have been calculated along and checked through with various issues taken into account, from Hit Dice to size and age categories; using CR as a guideline is a faulty way of designing monsters, especially so since you yourself has proven that things don&#39;t go along with CR. The table shows a remarkable pattern; just try to find out how it plays out and you will see what I mean...

    And the Cerilian dragon is identical to the blue dragon in terms of size-to-age categories and Hit Dice.
    While the CR in itself is by no means a foolproof measure, the target CR is often very useful when designing monsters. E.g. give a monster too high or too low AC relative to the group of characters it can realistically expect to face and it is suddenly not a very good design.

    Lets assume that the CR in the MM is relatively &#39;correct&#39;, and that the Cerilian dragon should be designed around similar guidelines. In comparison to the blue dragon the cerilian one has a CR one higher. Comparing the two monsters the biggest difference is the cerilian dragon having an AC of 5 points lower, which is quite significant, without much to compensate for this. Yes, the higher age categories have a slightly higher Fear DC, SR and saves, but especially the lower age categories have little to compensate for this.

    EDIT: I quick check in the SRD reveals that all dragons in the MM have a natural armour modifier of one less than their HD.

    In all it is hardly an important issue, and I think it is more useful to just give the poor dragon whatever abilities that are the baseline. When giving individual dragons their feats (long live the Draconomicon) they can easily become so broken that it is in many ways a moot point.

  8. #28
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    You mention that all dragons in the MM have an AC equal their HD minus 1. Should I mention that you both fail to say what part of the AC you mean and that if you mean their natural armour bonus then this is not a rule per se? Battle, oceanus, and rust: AC = HD; radiant: AC = HD - 4; shadow: AC = HD + 3.

    I, as I have earlier mentioned, have only filled up existing gaps, even correcting flight speeds and maneuverabilities that were blatantly wrong (sorry BRCS Team, this is not an attack against you) according to the patterns laid out by WotC books. It is true that the Cerilian dragon starts with no natural armour (something unheard of most dragons, but this one can beat most of them with its superior spellcasting and supernatural abilities), but that is how the pattern goes as laid out already; if the team is OK with that, the little one could start with a +3 to +6 natural armour bonus (preferrable is indeed +5, I give you that), going up by +3 from that point on.

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 26 2004, 06:47 PM
    You mention that all dragons in the MM have an AC equal their HD minus 1. Should I mention that you both fail to say what part of the AC you mean and that if you mean their natural armour bonus then this is not a rule per se? Battle, oceanus, and rust: AC = HD; radiant: AC = HD - 4; shadow: AC = HD + 3.
    As I said it was the natural armour part of the AC. I agree that it is not a rule since it is not written as a rule anywhere (those you mention are not in the MM), but it appeared that you did not want to change the Cerilian dragon too much from the standard versions.

    It is true that the Cerilian dragon starts with no natural armour (something unheard of most dragons, but this one can beat most of them with its superior spellcasting and supernatural abilities), but that is how the pattern goes as laid out already; if the team is OK with that, the little one could start with a +3 to +6 natural armour bonus (preferrable is indeed +5, I give you that), going up by +3 from that point on.
    The problem with the younger dragons, where the AC is truly low, is that they don&#39;t have any spellcasting ability or supernatural abilities to make up for the lower AC.

  10. #30
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Well, if it was only up to my hands (that is, if people agree the dragon needs a little boosting), I could easily slap a +5 increase in the natural armour bonus to AC for all its age categories and be done with it; as simple as that... And I apologise for my comment, I missed that in your edit you mentioned it was the natural armour bonus you were writing about.

    Spell Resistance, on the other hand, is another thing. That needs a whole more forethought than simply adjusting it as we see fit. CRs also need a little work before we assign any numbers anywhere.

    And I am glad you agree with me when it comes to how buffed up dragons can be if properly prepared.

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