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  1. #1
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Steam... (a dissertation)

    On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 Saberdrake@aol.com wrote:

    > I would agree with you if this was the FR or Greyhawk or any other magic rich
    > realm. But BR is very low magic and therefore, more prone to technilogical
    > advancement from their craftsmen. Humans in the real world have always tried
    > to improve life with new gadgets and gizmos that do things to make life
    > easier. Why wouldn't it be different in BR? They just don't have magic to fall
    > back on as much. Just think, only blooded people can be wizards and even then
    > do you think those blooded mages are going to spend time making items that
    > replace technology? I think that technilogical advancements in BR is only
    > common sence since magic is so scarce. However, this is only my opinion.

    My opinion (and I'm only jumping in here because I think this debate is
    kind of fun, not because I think one vision is more "right" than the
    other) is that there is something even more fundamental to the basis of
    "science" and technological advancement than we are even considering here.
    First of all (and this may have already been mentioned) the kind of
    "tinkering" necessary to produce technological advances is highly
    dependant upon having a certain amount of free time to spend on things
    that might not be directly beneficial. In a medieval social structure this
    may be extremely rare, and particularly in the case of political
    decentralization (such as with the break-up of the Anuirean Empire) which
    creates conditions engendering near-constant warfare, which tends to be
    very draining on the cultural sources of productions (read:
    slaves/serfs/peasants). Thus your conception of the current state of
    anuirean civilization will make it more or less likely to see the
    development of gunpowder or steam engines.

    It is fairly obvious that Anuire is coming out of one such politically
    decentralized period, where warfare was relatively prevalent, but styles
    and individual recent histories may differ as to how far into the
    subsequent "calmer" period the civilization has advanced. Some may also
    find it interesting to role-play the process of a regent attempting to
    establish increasing centralization in the face of decentralizing forces;
    this is a theme played on in the set-ups of several Brecht and Vos domain
    descriptions, and particularly in the Rjurik nations. Others will find it
    more interesting to play further up the "centralization curve" toward a
    more renaissance culture, and certain factors, in particular the presence
    of a potentially strong guilder class, indicate that the rules are
    amenable for that, too.

    I should mention, however, that the presence of guilders does not
    necessarily imply the presence of renaissance-level culture. One could
    easily imagine a medieval system which incorporates wielders of economic
    power. It would just add to the balance of decentralized power
    characterized by wielders of religious/ceremonial power and wielders of
    political/military power characterized by the RL medieval system. I would
    argue that guilders in Anuire would do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to ensure
    that most landed domain rulers DO NOT EVER control guild holdings or trade
    routes. Doing so erodes their own power base. Now, numerous people have
    pointed out that guilders tend to become immensely powerful in Anuire, and
    others have noted that fighters tend to be at a disadvantage because they
    only gain RP from provinces and law holdings, while others have more
    possible RP sources. I can think of a solution to this problem for those
    who wish to play at a more medieval level, which seems almost obvious when
    thought of in this way (I can't believe I didn't think of it before): Only
    fighter regents can muster knight units. Knights are generally recognized
    to be the premier fighting unit in the BR system, and it makes a certain
    amount of sense that they would only follow a member of the hereditary
    political/military heirarchy (it is in their own best interest as members
    of that heirarchy). Fighter lieutennants (or monuments mentioned by an
    earlier poster) might allow non-fighter regents to muster a limited
    number of knight units, counting as the regent's lieutennant action, and
    producing at most one unit per season. (Paladins, as fighers, also gain
    this advantage over priests, allowing me to justify my continuing
    belief that paladins should never be allowed realm spells.)

    Returning to the main point of this post (if that is by this time at all
    possible), there is another reason that science and technological progress
    might be very difficult to achieve in Anuirean (or indeed Cerilian)
    culture. They say that necessity is the mother of invention, but things
    are not quite so simple as that. In order for necessity to translate into
    invention, a number of fundamental attitudes must be held in the mind of
    the human doing the inventing. The agent of invention must 1.) believe
    that the universe is capable of change, 2.) that change is capable of
    producing the betterment of life, rather than the general downfall of
    order into chaos and death, and that 3.) he is personally capable of
    effecting changes of the kind that produce improvement. It has been said
    that science requires "a profound lack of humility before nature," and it
    is probably no accident that it is not known to have developed in most
    known human cultures, at least to the extent that it did in Western
    European culture and its lineal decendants.

    Now, belief #1 above is probably no problem to most Cerilians. After all,
    a fundamental and universal belief among them is that the old gods died
    and new ones took their place. Change happens. #2 is a little more
    problematical, and I would say that this belief is almost certainly
    foreign to the Vos, and I could make the argument for at least the
    "fundamentalist/tribalist" Rjurik as well. #3, however, is where you
    really begin to get stuck. Most people on the face of Cerilia, the 99.1
    percent (or whatever) who are not blooded, are deeply ingrained with the
    fundamental belief that there is a subset of humanity that is capable of
    Making Things Happen, and that they do not belong to that set. It is
    probably a part of their religion (except possibily that of
    Sera/Sarimie) and reinforced by their basic mythological stories. Such a
    fundamental belief system about the nature of the world is likely to be
    extremely difficult to break out, and each individual DM's opinion about
    this will determine whether cultural advancement will take the form of a
    "scientific technology" which develops along side the magical structure of
    the cultural elite, or a "magical technology" which develops within the
    structure of the cultural elite. A scientific technology will develop much
    faster, as it created by the intellegent among the "common people" and has
    a much greater variation in ideas, viewpoints and theories upon which to
    proceed, whereas a "magical technology" will develop more slowly, because
    it is created by the intelligent among the "elite" (i.e. blooded), which
    is a far smaller group, and which is much more likely to be very similar
    in the way they think, and much more willing to buy into an inertial
    conception of "the right way to do things." (Note the continued support of
    Platonic metaphysics among European intelligensia up until the
    Renaissance.)

    A final aside before I wind this baby up. The dwarven culture appears to
    me to be the one exception to this rule. Dwarven children are taught that
    each once of them is special, and beloved of Moradin. Thus each is
    empowered to the "heroic" ability to engender change. Anuireans are taught
    that the "noble warrior" is special, and beloved of Haelyn; Brechts that
    the wealthy are special, and beloved of Sera. Finally, elves appear to me
    to be too much concerned with the status quo and returning things back to
    the way they were in the "good old days" to be very interested in an
    experimental approach. This is probably a fundamental result of elven
    immortality as they respond to a culturally tramatic event. Change in
    elven culture probably cannot begin until a generation of elves who do not
    remember the "good old times" as strongly can come into power, which could
    be a very long time indeed.

    So, these are my criteria for DM's to take into account when deciding
    whether to incorporate technological advances into their Fantasy
    role-playing games. I can certainly see interesting possibilities in both
    types of cultures.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

    (who is seriously impressed by your stamina if you actually made it this
    far)

  2. #2
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Steam... (a dissertation)

    From: Mark A Vandermeulen
    >others have noted that fighters tend to be at a disadvantage because they
    >only gain RP from provinces and law holdings, while others have more
    >possible RP sources. I can think of a solution to this problem for those
    >who wish to play at a more medieval level, which seems almost obvious when
    >thought of in this way (I can't believe I didn't think of it before): Only
    >fighter regents can muster knight units. Knights are generally recognized
    >to be the premier fighting unit in the BR system, and it makes a certain
    >amount of sense that they would only follow a member of the hereditary
    >political/military heirarchy (it is in their own best interest as members
    >of that heirarchy). Fighter lieutennants (or monuments mentioned by an
    >earlier poster) might allow non-fighter regents to muster a limited
    >number of knight units, counting as the regent's lieutennant action, and
    >producing at most one unit per season. (Paladins, as fighers, also gain
    >this advantage over priests, allowing me to justify my continuing
    >belief that paladins should never be allowed realm spells.)
    >
    What about knights as considered in a religious context? Knights
    Templar, Hospitilar, etc, should have an equivalent, especially in the more
    militant crusading orders in Anuire, the Haelyn's Aegis, Militant Order of
    Cuiraecen, Life and Protection of Avanalae, Haelyn's Warriors in Rohrmarch
    and the Cuiraecite church there (whose name I forget). In fact, most Haelyn
    and Cuiraecen churches would have that potential, throughout Cerilia,
    because in Anuire such things are done historically, and in other places,
    those churches are of Anuirean origin, brought by the empire.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

  3. #3
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Steam... (a dissertation)

    On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Daniel McSorley wrote:

    > What about knights as considered in a religious context? Knights
    > Templar, Hospitilar, etc, should have an equivalent, especially in the more
    > militant crusading orders in Anuire, the Haelyn's Aegis, Militant Order of
    > Cuiraecen, Life and Protection of Avanalae, Haelyn's Warriors in Rohrmarch
    > and the Cuiraecite church there (whose name I forget). In fact, most Haelyn
    > and Cuiraecen churches would have that potential, throughout Cerilia,
    > because in Anuire such things are done historically, and in other places,
    > those churches are of Anuirean origin, brought by the empire.

    Either a.) they should be organized and led by paladins (which would
    qualify as a vassal rather than a lieutennant if you give him so much as a
    single temple or law holding), or b.) it should require some form of
    "extra step" to be necessary, such as a "call to holy war" monument, or
    the use of a lieutennant who can retain the full loyalty and respect of
    the hereditary military nobility. I should note that historically, the
    cheif problem with religious military orders is that the church which
    created them typically had great dificulty in controlling them. Witness
    the trouble the catholic church had with the Knights Templar and Teutonic
    Knights, or the history of the Shao-lin Monastery.

    I should note that it is also well within the rights of a nation's ruler
    to pass a law that says that temples cannot muster army units, or to
    strictly limit the number of units that may be located within his borders
    at any time. I note that the second level priestly realm spell "holy war"
    is designed get around just this problem, which suggests that the
    condition is largely prevalent in Anuire. I also note that I personally
    make a distinction between a "knight" (i.e. a highly-armored man on a
    heavy warhorse with a big stick) and a "temple warrior" (who is a fighter
    dedicated to the protection and goals of a temple, and who can logically
    be of any unit type). I actually use the word "templar" (lower case) for
    the latter case, and have always intended to write up a fighter "kit" for
    such Anuirean "templars," but have never seemed to get around to it.

    And finally, of course, it is always anyone's option to simple ignore my
    ramblings.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  4. #4
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Steam... (a dissertation)

    > From: Mark A Vandermeulen
    > >others have noted that fighters tend to be at a disadvantage because they
    > >only gain RP from provinces and law holdings, while others have more
    > >possible RP sources. I can think of a solution to this problem for those

    I might have missed a good part of this thread, but I was curious...what
    other sources do a mage or cleric have..they collect RPs only from source
    or temple holdings (respectively) in addition to provinces..only fighters
    get regency from law holdings (barring the "hybrid" classes like Ranger
    and Paladin, but they SHOULD be difficult to roll up anyway, so the
    likelyhood of a bunch of these guys running around should be small)..

    Sean

  5. #5
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Steam... (a dissertation)

    On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, David Sean Brown wrote:

    > > From: Mark A Vandermeulen
    > > >others have noted that fighters tend to be at a disadvantage because they
    > > >only gain RP from provinces and law holdings, while others have more
    > > >possible RP sources. I can think of a solution to this problem for those
    >
    > I might have missed a good part of this thread, but I was curious...what
    > other sources do a mage or cleric have..they collect RPs only from source
    > or temple holdings (respectively) in addition to provinces..only fighters
    > get regency from law holdings (barring the "hybrid" classes like Ranger
    > and Paladin, but they SHOULD be difficult to roll up anyway, so the
    > likelyhood of a bunch of these guys running around should be small)..

    Nope, check your Rulebook, clerics at least gather 1/2 RP from Law
    holdings. Now wizards, on the other hand, gather RP only from provinces
    and source holdings, but at least they only have to really worry about
    competition from other wizards, so that may partially compensate.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

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