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Thread: Steam...

  1. #1
    lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon
    Guest

    Steam...

    Dearnen:

    I think that is a good point, and interesting starting place for
    alternate history development that steam power doesn't have to be
    correlated with gunpowder development.

    The increased knowledge of metallurgy, combustion, chemistry
    in general will pretty nearly inevitably lead to more powerful
    weapons, but they could be scalding steam canons, or pneumatic gunnes,
    or ...

    Railroads, with or without gunpowder, with or without electricity and
    telegraphs, would tend to lead towards a more centralized government.
    It will make it easier for the central imperium to, ah, railroad its
    views over any locals. This may not be an altogether Good Thing.

    Steam power without rails might be even more interesting. If mass
    iron and steel production doesn't come in just right then, ... then
    steam powered land wagons might be used. This still drastically
    imrpoves transportation speed, but without automatically massively
    centralizing.

    Does Cerilla have rubber, or something that could be used in its
    place? If not, look out for a bumpy ride.

    I forget if coal is mentioned. It would be neater if it wasn't, as
    this somewhat slows industrialization in a number of ways (a lot of
    steam engines were developed to pump out coal mines! ) and exacerbate
    the burning of forests as city and province levels rise.

    Some useful reading:

    L. Sprague de Camp ANCIENT ENGINEERS, non-fiction, copyright in the
    1960's. As a science fiction writer he knows how to be reasonably
    entertaining in covering a review from stone age to renaissance. It
    does mention Heiro or whoever's steam engines, and their limitations.

    LIAVEK, various authors Shetterly seems to be the editor, at least 3
    volumes set in a world with pistols and magic and the first railroads
    just being built (and magic's influence on that). A higher tech world
    than many fantasy but still one where swords and sorcery are not run
    over by technology.

    PAVANE, Keith Roberts, alternate history 20th century where the
    Spanish invasion of England in 1588 worked, has some steam powered
    trains, without rails.


    Lyndon

  2. #2
    Trizt
    Guest

    Steam...

    Brian Stoner (bstoner@efn.org) wrote:

    - -> Now, seeing as how steam power is relatively simple, has anyone
    - -> considered how this may effect a land like Cerilia?
    A completly forestless land, much of the soil would have blown out to the
    sea. Many remains/ruins from the last Elven-Human war which started due the
    humans started to cut down trees in the Elven woods. The effects would have
    been alot worse than it was for Spain (they used up almost every tree to
    build ships).

    ->Imagine if the
    - -> Romans had gone ahead and developed the technology. Three primary uses
    - -> come to mind, locomotives, steam ships, and mills. Within a few decades
    - -> to a century, the Empire would have become much more powerful than it
    - -> already was...which was emmense by any reckoning. The ability to move
    - -> troops quickly would have helped in shoring up defenses abroad and at
    - -> home.
    The amount of iron of which to make weapons for the troops would have been
    much less which would have implayed in smaller forces, even if you could
    transport all you troops to one place quickly, there hadn't been enough
    troops during
    multiple attacks/unrests.

    - ->The increased reliability of trade and travel would have had a
    - -> great deal of power in strengthening the economy.
    Think of all those robberies which would have happened in more unpopulated
    areas, just destroy the track so much that the train will get off, most
    those onboard would either be wounded or dead and hardly fit for defend the
    "treasures" on board.


    - ->And with few other
    - -> nations to oppose, the Empire would have pushed it's borders much
    - -> farther. Imagine an industrial revolution way back then. All this
    - -> without gunpowder...
    I think thath the Chinese export of steem powered equipments had increased
    if there had been a powerful steampowered Roman empire. Maybe we had seen
    some real export of steamguns. Anyhow, the Roman empire hadn't been able to
    keep the knowhow secret for long and smugling of steam equipment had been as
    common as of weapons (it was forbidden to export weapons to barbarians, but
    you can find alot of Rome made weapons in those "barbarian" countries).


    - -> I'm not necissarily advocating the introduction of steam engines to a
    - -> campaign, just imagining the possiblities.
    I have some suggestions for those who are thinking of introducing steam
    engines to their campaigns,

    Those who know how to make a steamengine are all members of a secret guild
    which protects it's knowlged with help of assassins.

    It's extreme expensive to build a working steam engine and there is always
    the risk it blows up, exspecially if the crew is unused to the machine.

    It's quite wood/cole swallowing, so to run one would cost quite much.

    A steam engine can't be warmed up by magic, it would explode within 1d4
    hours.

    It's all upto you if you will use thise suggestions.


    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

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  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Steam...

    Trizt wrote:

    > Brian Stoner (bstoner@efn.org) wrote:
    >
    > -> Now, seeing as how steam power is relatively simple, has anyone
    > -> considered how this may effect a land like Cerilia?
    > A completly forestless land, much of the soil would have blown out to the
    > sea. Many remains/ruins from the last Elven-Human war which started due the
    > humans started to cut down trees in the Elven woods. The effects would have
    > been alot worse than it was for Spain (they used up almost every tree to
    > build ships).

    Ah, but this is where the coexistence of magic and technology could come in. That
    is, a wizard might summon a fire elemental and entrap it in the "boiler" room as a
    constant source of heat or simply create a spell that would be the fire source.
    Perhaps a magic item might be created....

    > ->The increased reliability of trade and travel would have had a
    > -> great deal of power in strengthening the economy.
    > Think of all those robberies which would have happened in more unpopulated
    > areas, just destroy the track so much that the train will get off, most
    > those onboard would either be wounded or dead and hardly fit for defend the
    > "treasures" on board.

    How is this different from the real world? Such a crime would earn the
    perpetrators a death sentence and they would be hunted down like the scum they
    are. Sure, it might happen a few times, but as the gibbets get crowded, the ranks
    of such criminals would thin....

    > -> I'm not necissarily advocating the introduction of steam engines to a
    > -> campaign, just imagining the possiblities.

    The thing I think people should keep in mind about improving technology (which is
    really just a research action from what I can tell) is that it is a remarkably
    slow process. You can't just go from grainmills to steam engines, even if you
    have all the components right in front of you. There's a process of research that
    has many small steps in between these two inventions. It might take 25 different
    successful research actions to come up with the most elementary steam engine.
    Another 50 to develop the idea of travelling by rail. (People were more likely to
    dig channels and travel by boat than they were to lay down track, for instance.)
    Somebody would have to research for years to come up with putting a steam engine
    on a vehicle and putting that on tracks.

    Part of my thing about technology, however, is... well, would they even bother
    doing this? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense for them to research how to
    create magical portals that would instantly transport things from one place to
    another? Or a magical vehicle that would do the same as a train? There are
    already the magical equivalents of early planes (flying carpets, brooms, etc.) in
    the game. The same with submarines (that Apparatus of Whoever thingie) and
    telephones (Dream and other spells.) Wouldn't the research be more likely to take
    that form rather than non-magical forms?

    Gary

  4. #4
    Trizt
    Guest

    Steam...

    Gary V. Foss (GeeMan@linkline.com) wrote:

    - ->> Think of all those robberies which would have happened in more
    unpopulated
    - ->> areas, just destroy the track so much that the train will get off, most
    - ->> those onboard would either be wounded or dead and hardly fit for defend
    the
    - ->> "treasures" on board.
    - -> How is this different from the real world? Such a crime would earn the
    - -> perpetrators a death sentence and they would be hunted down like the scum
    they
    - -> are. Sure, it might happen a few times, but as the gibbets get crowded,
    the ranks
    - -> of such criminals would thin....

    I'm a bit confused of your question, Brian was talking about the Roman
    empire which was a part of the RW.
    I don't think there would be any differences between the RW and BR,
    robberies has allways been done, even if it meant death if you where cought,
    as there are allways a new one to take the place of the just executed thief.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -----------------
    E-Mail: trizt@iname.com URL1: http://home.bip.net/trizt/
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    Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel:
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  5. #5
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Steam...

    Trizt wrote:

    > Gary V. Foss (GeeMan@linkline.com) wrote:
    >
    > ->> Think of all those robberies which would have happened in more
    > unpopulated
    > ->> areas, just destroy the track so much that the train will get off, most
    > ->> those onboard would either be wounded or dead and hardly fit for defend
    > the
    > ->> "treasures" on board.
    > -> How is this different from the real world? Such a crime would earn the
    > -> perpetrators a death sentence and they would be hunted down like the scum
    > they
    > -> are. Sure, it might happen a few times, but as the gibbets get crowded,
    > the ranks
    > -> of such criminals would thin....
    >
    > I'm a bit confused of your question, Brian was talking about the Roman
    > empire which was a part of the RW.
    > I don't think there would be any differences between the RW and BR,
    > robberies has allways been done, even if it meant death if you where cought,
    > as there are allways a new one to take the place of the just executed thief.

    I was trying to say that the response to such a situation would be very similar to
    the response in real life. Train robberies were very common for a very long
    time. In fact, I think they would probably happen if there was a train in BR.
    What I was trying to say, is that the response to those train robberies
    (especially ones like that described in the original message in which the robbers
    intentionally derail the train, injuring and possibly killing hundreds of
    passengers) would have the same reaction in the game as it would have in real
    life. That is, people would go to almost any length to hunt these people down and
    bring them to justice.

    I hope that clears it up a little. Sorry I wasn't clear to begin with....

    Gary

  6. #6
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Steam...

    On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Simon Graindorge wrote:

    > >Now, seeing as how steam power is relatively simple, has anyone
    > >considered how this may effect a land like Cerilia? Imagine if the
    > >Romans had gone ahead and developed the technology. Three primary uses
    > >come to mind, locomotives, steam ships, and mills.
    >
    > in my campaigns, I usually have the dwarves already possessing steam
    > technology, though they don't use it for particularly military purposes. It
    > is more for things such as manufacture/milling/production/digging
    > tools/mining/etc. I can't envisage the dwarves coming up with steam ships,
    > but locomotives would be interesting.

    I think particularly of steam-powered up-hill tows for mine rail-cars.
    Your typical Disney-esque dwarven mine rail cars work fine for rolling
    down hill, but dwarves should be ingenious enough to envision a chain-link
    towing system to bring the goods up to the surface (or to subsurface
    smelting stations) with steam power.



    > However, steam ships is something different - they don't need tracks. The
    > original ones were very bulky and slow, and I'm pretty sure that sailing
    > ships of the day would have run rings around them (any history buffs care to
    > correct my educated guesses?). But they would have withstood a lot more
    > damage....hmmm...interesting.

    Very true for the early ironclads. They were heavy, rode low in the water
    (which would have given them an atrocious seaworthyness rating) and could
    easily be outrun by a lighter, faster sail ship in all but becalmed
    waters. Early models were essentially good for port defense and little
    else. I could see a few patroling the Arnienbae and harbours in the
    Krakennauricht, but little else until they actually developed whole
    processes of building the ships out of steel rather than just iron-plating
    wood.

    (And incidentally, a ram remains an effective weapon against most early
    iron-clads: they're still wooden underneath. Can't you just see a PC's
    wonderful new steam-powered ironclad being taken out by a lowly Serpent
    Galley?)

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

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