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  1. #1
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    The Olesens wrote:

    > I am going to be running a campaign in which all my players must be wizards,
    > magicans, or priests of Rilni from Khinasi. They will begin thier pilgrimage to
    > the temple of Rilni individually, meet up at Ariya then go from there. Now all
    > of them will probably have blood since only true mages have to swaer the oaths.
    > But what about a blooded charachter who wants to be an illusionist or diviner? I
    > might allow it but I really like the magican class. Any ideas on blooded
    > magicans?

    This is an interesting adventure idea. I like it. Will there be any non-mages
    involved at all? It could get a little unpleasant for them if there are no fighters
    at all in the party. Especially since the group is all going to be 1st level.
    Perhaps you could throw in a half-elven or elven character who is a non-blooded
    fighter/wizard or something? A henchmen or two might help also.

    As for blooded magicians, I can't see any reason why they can't exist. They still
    have to abide by all the restrictions of regular magicians regarding spell use, but
    aside from that, there should be no problem with it. I don't really know why a
    blooded character would CHOOSE to be a magician, but if somebody can come up with a
    decent backstory to explain why his character came about, I say go for it.

    As for Illusionists and Diviners, I don't see any reason why these guys can't exist
    either. In fact, I allow non-blooded characters to become either in my campaign.
    They still have the same spell restrictions as magicians, and are restricted to the
    standard wizard weapon proficiencies, but if a player chooses to go that way they
    can.

    Gary

  2. #2
    James Ray
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    - ----------
    > From: Gary V. Foss
    > To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    > Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Blooded Magicians
    > Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 6:48 AM
    >
    > The Olesens wrote:
    >
    > > I am going to be running a campaign in which all my players must be
    wizards, magicans, or priests of Rilni from Khinasi. > >

    Mr Foss adds...
    >
    > This is an interesting adventure idea. I like it. Will there be any
    non-mages involved at all? It could get a little unpleasant for them if
    there are no fighters at all in the party. Especially since the group is
    all going to be 1st level. Perhaps you could throw in a half-elven or elven
    character who is a non-blooded fighter/wizard or something? A henchmen or
    two might help also.

    WHY would a person want to be a blooded Magician? The class collects no
    Regency, and the PC wouldnt be eligible for the regular 10% XP bonus for
    playing a non-blooded character. If you have a character willing to go
    without ruling a realm, controlling sources, etc, JUST so he can be a
    "specialist" Diviner/Illusionist, hats off to you. However, I think a
    single-class adventure can be a lot of fun. Make sure your Mages
    specialize in a few fields, though. The Clerics ought to be able to take
    up the slack left from the party's lack of Fighters, and the Mage's spells
    (especially at higher levels :) will make the group extremely formidable.
    A PC should ALWAYS be able to "rent" a 0-level fighter for a few levels,
    though. I'm accustomed to playing with large parties (6-8 warm bodies), so
    that I can include a LOT of melee. Henchmen arent as good for low-level
    parties... hired muscle doesnt usually last very long, and there is a LIMIT
    to the total number of henchmen a PC can have in its lifetime. The
    hire-swords that LAST, though, would make appropriate henchman, after the
    PCs have gained a few levels. Back when I played, my own party contained a
    0-level fighter who, whenever the DM rolled for his hits, got 20's about
    half the time :) Only 7 hit points, but he was a killing machine LOL>
    > As for blooded magicians, I can't see any reason why they can't exist.
    They still have to abide by all the restrictions of regular magicians
    regarding spell use, but aside from that, there should be no problem with
    it. I don't really know why a
    > blooded character would CHOOSE to be a magician, but if somebody can come
    up with a decent backstory to explain why his character came about, I say
    go for it.>

    As I said before, the reason is fairly simple - to get "specialist" bonuses
    in TWO classes LOL. Players are SHAMELESS, arent they? They lQQK at those
    bonuses without even thinking "gosh, there are 6 whole schools of magic I
    cant cast 3rd (or above) level spells in?" Let them go for it, and
    appreciate their devotion to the campaign. A player who will do that is
    probly more fun than 2 or 3 who wouldnt.

    > As for Illusionists and Diviners, I don't see any reason why these guys
    can't exist either. In fact, I allow non-blooded characters to become
    either in my campaign. They still have the same spell restrictions as
    magicians, and are restricted to the
    > standard wizard weapon proficiencies, but if a player chooses to go that
    way they can.
    >
    > Gary

    NON-blooded Mages cant be Illusionists or Diviners. One can ONLY become a
    SPECIALIST Mage if one is eligible to be a TRUE Mage. It's YOUR campaign,
    though, and if YOU like it, Im sure its a good way to play the game :)
    Hey, as always, we DMs are the guys who shell out all the money, and spend
    all the time before a session preparing for play, so we get TREMENDOUS
    latitude in our interpretaions of the rules :-Ʋ

    DMs RULE

    James

  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    James Ray wrote:

    > > As for Illusionists and Diviners, I don't see any reason why these guys
    > can't exist either. In fact, I allow non-blooded characters to become
    > either in my campaign. They still have the same spell restrictions as
    > magicians, and are restricted to the
    > > standard wizard weapon proficiencies, but if a player chooses to go that
    > way they can.
    > >
    > > Gary
    >
    > NON-blooded Mages cant be Illusionists or Diviners. One can ONLY become a
    > SPECIALIST Mage if one is eligible to be a TRUE Mage. It's YOUR campaign,
    > though, and if YOU like it, Im sure its a good way to play the game :)
    > Hey, as always, we DMs are the guys who shell out all the money, and spend
    > all the time before a session preparing for play, so we get TREMENDOUS
    > latitude in our interpretaions of the rules :-Ʋ

    This was a subject of debate around here a while back. I listed a couple
    reasons why non-blooded characters should be allowed to be both specialist
    illusionists and diviners, so long as they abide by the spell restrictions that
    magicians have. That is, they get full access to the Divination and Illusion
    spheres, and access to all 1st and 2nd level spells from all other sphers, but
    no other abilities. I won't list the reasons for allowing these character
    class options again for the sake of brevity....

    The question is, why shouldn't they be allowed? I don't remember reading
    anywhere in the rulebook that they CAN'T exist. Even if there was a rule that
    said they couldn't I'd need a little more than that to disallow them. I kinda
    like having a justification for rules, you know? I can't come up with a reason
    to keep them out of the game, so I allow them. Only one player in my campaign
    has done it, so its not like I'm tossing the BR system out the window or
    anything. Oh, and I did it with an NPC... but it's not like Cerilia is
    crawling with them or anything.

    Lastly, I think a blooded magician would be able to control sources and gain
    RPs from them. He just couldn't cast a realm spell outside his pirmary spheres
    that has a casting level of 5th or higher (which is the cutoff point for 3rd
    level spells.)

    Gary

  4. #4
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > James Ray wrote:
    >
    > > NON-blooded Mages cant be Illusionists or Diviners. One can ONLY become a
    > > SPECIALIST Mage if one is eligible to be a TRUE Mage. It's YOUR campaign,
    > > though, and if YOU like it, Im sure its a good way to play the game :)
    > > Hey, as always, we DMs are the guys who shell out all the money, and spend
    > > all the time before a session preparing for play, so we get TREMENDOUS
    > > latitude in our interpretaions of the rules :-
    >
    >
    > This was a subject of debate around here a while back. I listed a couple
    > reasons why non-blooded characters should be allowed to be both specialist
    > illusionists and diviners, so long as they abide by the spell restrictions that
    > magicians have. That is, they get full access to the Divination and Illusion
    > spheres, and access to all 1st and 2nd level spells from all other sphers, but
    > no other abilities. I won't list the reasons for allowing these character
    > class options again for the sake of brevity....
    >
    > The question is, why shouldn't they be allowed? I don't remember reading
    > anywhere in the rulebook that they CAN'T exist. Even if there was a rule that
    > said they couldn't I'd need a little more than that to disallow them. I kinda
    > like having a justification for rules, you know? I can't come up with a reason
    > to keep them out of the game, so I allow them. Only one player in my campaign
    > has done it, so its not like I'm tossing the BR system out the window or
    > anything. Oh, and I did it with an NPC... but it's not like Cerilia is
    > crawling with them or anything.
    >
    > Lastly, I think a blooded magician would be able to control sources and gain
    > RPs from them. He just couldn't cast a realm spell outside his pirmary spheres
    > that has a casting level of 5th or higher (which is the cutoff point for 3rd
    > level spells.)

    I should probably point out that TSR itself published "kits" for
    specialist illusionist and diviner in the "Book of Magecraft." Some of
    the kits there, the Illuminator and the Seer, IIRC, are both limited to
    either illusion or divination spells, making them effectively magician
    specialists.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  5. #5
    L. D. Ruiz
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    isn't el-Habib (?) a necromancer, thereby making the others plausible.
    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Gary V. Foss
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 6:01 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Blooded Magicians


    >The Olesens wrote:
    >
    >> I am going to be running a campaign in which all my players must be
    wizards,
    >> magicans, or priests of Rilni from Khinasi. They will begin thier
    pilgrimage to
    >> the temple of Rilni individually, meet up at Ariya then go from there.
    Now all
    >> of them will probably have blood since only true mages have to swaer the
    oaths.
    >> But what about a blooded charachter who wants to be an illusionist or
    diviner? I
    >> might allow it but I really like the magican class. Any ideas on blooded
    >> magicans?
    >
    >This is an interesting adventure idea. I like it. Will there be any
    non-mages
    >involved at all? It could get a little unpleasant for them if there are no
    fighters
    >at all in the party. Especially since the group is all going to be 1st
    level.
    >Perhaps you could throw in a half-elven or elven character who is a
    non-blooded
    >fighter/wizard or something? A henchmen or two might help also.
    >
    >As for blooded magicians, I can't see any reason why they can't exist.
    They still
    >have to abide by all the restrictions of regular magicians regarding spell
    use, but
    >aside from that, there should be no problem with it. I don't really know
    why a
    >blooded character would CHOOSE to be a magician, but if somebody can come
    up with a
    >decent backstory to explain why his character came about, I say go for it.
    >
    >As for Illusionists and Diviners, I don't see any reason why these guys
    can't exist
    >either. In fact, I allow non-blooded characters to become either in my
    campaign.
    >They still have the same spell restrictions as magicians, and are
    restricted to the
    >standard wizard weapon proficiencies, but if a player chooses to go that
    way they
    >can.
    >
    >Gary
    >
    >************************************************* **************************
    >>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

  6. #6
    James Ray
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    - ----------
    > From: Mark A Vandermeulen
    >
    > On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >
    > > James Ray wrote:
    > >
    > > > NON-blooded Mages cant be Illusionists or Diviners. One can ONLY
    become a SPECIALIST Mage if one is eligible to be a TRUE Mage.

    > > This was a subject of debate around here a while back. I listed a
    couple reasons why non-blooded characters should be allowed to be both
    specialist illusionists and diviners, so long as they abide by the spell
    restrictions that magicians have.


    I wasnt paying attention, at that time, and missed it :) Sorry.

    That is, they get full access to the Divination and Illusion
    > > spheres, and access to all 1st and 2nd level spells from all other
    sphers, but no other abilities. I won't list the reasons for allowing
    these character class options again for the sake of brevity...>>

    You are STILL only talking about a Magician, though...

    The question is, why shouldn't they be allowed? I don't remember reading
    anywhere in the rulebook that they CAN'T exist. Even if there was a rule
    that said they couldn't I'd need a little more than that to disallow them.
    I kinda like having a justification for rules, you know? I can't come up
    with a reason
    to keep them out of the game, so I allow them. Only one player in my
    campaign has done it, so its not like I'm tossing the BR system out the
    window or anything. Oh, and I did it with an NPC... but it's not like
    Cerilia is crawling with them or anything.
    > >

    Magicians are specialists in TWO schools of magic. "Knowing" and
    "seeming". If the Player in question wishes to forego his "Specialist"
    bonuses in ONE of those Schools of Magic, hey, I would never tell him "no".
    It STILL seems to me that you are talking about a Character who is Blooded
    (and so CAPABLE of being a True Mage), but chooses not to for unfathomable
    reasons.

    > > Lastly, I think a blooded magician would be able to control sources and
    gain RPs from them. He just couldn't cast a realm spell outside his
    pirmary spheres that has a casting level of 5th or higher (which is the
    cutoff point for 3rd level spells.)> >

    If thats how you run your game, then THAT is how you run your game. More
    power to you. By the rules, though, Magicians dont gain Regency from ANY
    holdings.

    > I should probably point out that TSR itself published "kits" for
    > specialist illusionist and diviner in the "Book of Magecraft." Some of
    the kits there, the Illuminator and the Seer, IIRC, are both limited to
    either illusion or divination spells, making them effectively magician
    specialists.
    >
    > Mark VanderMeulen

    Actually, the only distinction between an Illuminator and a Seer, is
    whether the character's preference lies in Illusion or Divination,
    respectively. Magicians are already Specialists in two schools of magic.

  7. #7
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Blooded Magicians

    James Ray wrote:

    > > > > NON-blooded Mages cant be Illusionists or Diviners. One can ONLY
    > become a SPECIALIST Mage if one is eligible to be a TRUE Mage. snipping my OWN comments >
    >
    > > > This was a subject of debate around here a while back. I listed a
    > couple reasons why non-blooded characters should be allowed to be both
    > specialist illusionists and diviners, so long as they abide by the spell
    > restrictions that magicians have.
    >
    >
    > I wasnt paying attention, at that time, and missed it :) Sorry.
    >
    > That is, they get full access to the Divination and Illusion
    > > > spheres, and access to all 1st and 2nd level spells from all other
    > sphers, but no other abilities. I won't list the reasons for allowing
    > these character class options again for the sake of brevity...>>
    >
    > You are STILL only talking about a Magician, though...

    I guess I didn't make this clear. What I'm talking about is specialist
    Illusionists or Diviners. That is, they get full access to 1st & 2nd level
    spells from all spheres, access to all illusion or divination spells, plus
    their bonus spells in the sphere of their specialization. For BR Illusionist
    and Diviners, I don't keep them out of the 1st & 2nd level spells of their
    opposition spheres.

    > Magicians are specialists in TWO schools of magic. "Knowing" and
    > "seeming". If the Player in question wishes to forego his "Specialist"
    > bonuses in ONE of those Schools of Magic, hey, I would never tell him "no".
    > It STILL seems to me that you are talking about a Character who is Blooded
    > (and so CAPABLE of being a True Mage), but chooses not to for unfathomable
    > reasons.

    I'm talking about both. Since it seems to be unclear, I'll list a couple
    reasons why a player might want to be a specialist Illusionist or Diviner
    rather than a magician if he was unblooded.

    1. Ability scores. What if they didn't roll high enough dexterity or wisdom to
    become a magician, but did have high enough rolls to become an Illusionist or
    Diviner?

    2. Dual classing. Again, there is a conflict with ability scores for dual
    classing. Dual-classing to a magician would require 17's in both intelligence
    and wisdom, which is rather an unlikely combination. What happened in my
    campaign was that a non-blooded thief had 17's in both intelligence and
    dexterity. He wanted to dual class to become a non-blooded Illusionist. I
    couldn't come up with a reason why he shouldn't be able to, especially since it
    worked so well in the context of the character. (He focussed mostly on spying
    activities and being an illusionist worked incredibly well in context.)

    > > > Lastly, I think a blooded magician would be able to control sources and
    > gain RPs from them. He just couldn't cast a realm spell outside his
    > pirmary spheres that has a casting level of 5th or higher (which is the
    > cutoff point for 3rd level spells.)> >
    >
    > If thats how you run your game, then THAT is how you run your game. More
    > power to you. By the rules, though, Magicians dont gain Regency from ANY
    > holdings.

    Where does it say that? I just reread the description of sources and magicians
    and I didn't see it.... Could you give me a page number, or is this statement
    based upon your interpretation of the rules?

    I think it might be implied that magicians can't cast realm spells by the way
    they are described in the Rulebook, but I think that implication is based upon
    the assumption that they are unblooded and will never be in control of a source
    because of that. What if a magician gains a bloodline sometime later in his
    career? Or if he chooses to be a blooded magician for some strange reason?

    Gary

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