Chap 5 for discussion

[Don E]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Aug 22 2004, 12:39 PM
The bonus to domain actions is indeed a synergy bonus. I don't see how that can be read in any other manner.

Agree, that is absolutely the way the rules are currently written. IMO this is a bed writeup as I think more of a domain action as an abstracation of several skill checks.

The actual action check roll being made counts all modifiers, including appropriate ability modifier.

If the synergy bonus includes all modifiers, then natural ability (as well as feats) are being counted twice. This is against the concepts of the core rules.

Eh, this is not in line with the current writeup of the rules. As things stand now the ability modifier does not come into the equation at all (unless it is in some other chapter that I'm not currently reading). If the rules were rewritten to include the ability modifier I would take this as an argument for making the domain action modifier dependent on the total skill bonus instead of giving a greater imporance on the abilities than skill ranks.

When it comes to feats the change to using total skill instead of ranks could remove the actual need for any domain specific skills, as the skill focus (and possibly greater skill focus) feats could be used instead.

[ConjurerDragon]

Osprey schrieb:



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> Osprey wrote:

>...

>There is a different way to go about this besides changing the divisor - which is adjusting the base DC`s for Domain Actions. Possibly raising base DC`s to 15 instead of 10. The reason I prefer this approach is because it gives slightly more power to skills vs. RP. If you increase the divisor (especially to something as high as 8!), it makes RP even more powerful than in the BRCS. As it is, RP will always remain the utterly dominant power in domain actions, but this way skills will have slightly bigger effects seperate from RP - which I think makes for a more interesting game where the competence of regents remain significant factors.Also keep in mind, general skill bonuses tend to be less than actual ranks, especially for higher level characters, so don`t get too carried away by over-compensating for fear of skill bonuses making things too easy. Osprey

>

A way to prevent too much bonuses to domain actions without changing the

DC and without changing the divisor would be to use a rule similar to

the AC bonus of the Duelist class (can add 1 point of his Intelligence

bonus to his AC - but only 1 per his duelist class level). If a regent

can add 1 point of statbonus, synergybonus or whatever bonus but only 1

/ characterlevel it will not be unbalancing.

bye

Michael

[Athos69]

Originally posted by irdeggman+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Skill modifier (pg 103)

“(Full domain actions only) +1 for every 5 ranks that the regent has in the relevent skill.”


The bonus to domain actions is indeed a synergy bonus. I don&#39;t see how that can be read in any other manner.

The actual action check roll being made counts all modifiers, including appropriate ability modifier.[/b]

Duane, nowhere in that text does it specify that the Domain scale skill bonus is a Synergy modifier. I have always read 1/5 as being a scaling factor from character scale play to Domain scale play.

Further, as this is strictly dependant on ranks, there is no adjustment based on ability, supporting synergistic skills or supporting feats, save where a feat specifies that it has a Domain level effect. The word &#39;ranks&#39; in the quoted section exclude all of these influences.

<!--QuoteBegin-RaspK
Any art teacher can tell you that talented people only have a gift to BECOME better; a student with little talent who has given everything to his exercise can be better than another student with lots of talent who has never exercised.[/quote]

Yes, but that student who outperformed the &#39;natural&#39; has placed enough skill ranks into the Art skill to produce a better overall skill modifier than the &#39;natural&#39;.

[The Jew]

I believe that I, Duane and others were calling it a synergy bonus since iyt is a bonus based upon 5 ranks in a skill, extremely similar to a synergy bonus. Still, I must agree with Osprey and Athos that it need not be considered a synergy bonus.

One recieves a synergy bonus because you have training in an area that is related to another skill. With the skills that are being used as a base for Domain actions, the skills are not related, they are the skill that is required for the Domain action. The +1 for every 5 ranks is a way to integrate the skill rules from 3.5 with domain action rules, using rules similar to the synergy bonus. What Osprey, Athos and I want to do is make to make it closer to a skill check with the total skill modifier being divided by X and then modified by a d20 to determine success of a domain action.

Neither method is contradictory to 3.5 rules. Each is just a different method for translating skills into modifiers for a domain action check.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, there is no such thing as a synergy bonus under 3.5e; the term was deemed obsolete.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 22 2004, 05:46 PM
Actually, there is no such thing as a synergy bonus under 3.5e; the term was dimmed (spelling?) obsolete.

Not exactly true. The term is not classed a synergy bonus in the description of each skill but pg 66 of the PHB talks about skill synergies.

The reason they are not specifically called synergy bonuses is so that they do not fall into the "no two same type of bonuses stack" except for dodge, circumstance and racial bonuses (unless specifically detailed in the description). Hence bonuses from synergies will stack.

[RaspK_FOG]

That&#39;s what I meant in the first place.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Don E@Aug 22 2004, 09:36 AM

The actual action check roll being made counts all modifiers, including appropriate ability modifier.

If the synergy bonus includes all modifiers, then natural ability (as well as feats) are being counted twice.* This is against the concepts of the core rules.

Eh, this is not in line with the current writeup of the rules. As things stand now the ability modifier does not come into the equation at all (unless it is in some other chapter that I&#39;m not currently reading). If the rules were rewritten to include the ability modifier I would take this as an argument for making the domain action modifier dependent on the total skill bonus instead of giving a greater imporance on the abilities than skill ranks.

Actually it is pretty much what is written.

From pg 102 of the BRCS-playtest under Resolving Actions

“Domain actions, like many combat actions, are not automatically successful. Many require a domain action check. A domain action check is the roll of 1d20 plus any modifiers. The base Difficulty Class of a domain check is dependent on the specific action attempted. The following modifiers commonly apply to success rolls for domain actions:”

The BRCS then goes on to list some other modifiers that can apply. It leaves off the ones from the PHB (ability modifiers and total ranks) since they always apply to skill checks and these are given as skill checks.

As a rule of thumb if the BRCS doesn&#39;t specifically state otherwise then the mechanics are exactly as they are in the PHB. I guess that statement should have been included in the Intro but I know it has been frequently been stated by myself and others since the BRCS-playtest was issued.

[The Jew]

This really needs to be spelled out in the revised version if it remains. I played in Raesene Andu&#39;s short lived game and with a couple other DM&#39;s, and none of them new of this rule.

[irdeggman]

Let&#39;s look at this Domain Action Check thing again. I think people are getting confused here. The present wording doesn&#39;t help.

With some exceptions all domain actions involve a skill check. {Keep this in mind it is a real important concept}. There is a base DC associated with the check. This check can be adjusted via the use of RP (essentially raising or lowering the DC of the action, call these situational modifiers).

I have already quoted the section that says to make 1d20 roll:

“Domain actions, like many combat actions, are not automatically successful. Many require a domain action check. A domain action check is the roll of 1d20 plus any modifiers. The base Difficulty Class of a domain check is dependent on the specific action attempted. The following modifiers commonly apply to success rolls for domain actions:”

Keep in mind this is actually a skill check. There are only so many different types of checks available in d20 - combat rolls, skill checks, saving throws, ability checks. I can&#39;t think of any others. Some results are determined by random rolls but those aren&#39;t rolls that determine the success or failure of an action.

Rereading the section in the BRCS-playtest talking about the bonuses:

"Skill modifier: (Full domain actions only) +1 for every 5 ranks that the regent has in the relevant skill. Each domain action is dependent on a specific skill listed in its description. If the regent sacrifices his character action to take a personal hand in the implementation of the domain action, then the domain action receives a bonus proportionate to the regent&#39;s skill."

What this is really saying is that if the regent performs the action himself he uses his personal skill check, otherwise only the +1 for every 5 ranks can be used. This is less than what the regent would be using since his ability score as well as the full value of his ranks are taken into effect. It was set up to capture some basic amount of simple direction that the regent is giving to those carrying out the action. If a Lt is performing the action his check value is likewise substituted for the +1/5 ranks since he is personally overseeing the action.

What is actually happening if the regent isn&#39;t doing the action himself is that an untrained skill check is being made by someone without any ability score or feat bonuses to apply. That is some unnamed, unknown beurocrat (spelling).

If one keeps in mind that this is indeed a skill check then everything starts to fall into place. The more I look this over I think the +1/5 ranks bonus should just be eliminated - it causes more confusion and straying from the core rules than it is worth, IMO.