Chap 5 for discussion

[Athos69]

So, to clarify things Duane, you aren't opposed to the concept of including the entire skill bonus into the calculations for Domain Bonus.

I am in agreement that only ranks should be used for calaculating synergies and RP collection.

One topic that was previously discussed was a tweaking of the RP collection table, to be instead based on the average of the skills. Had you or anyone else given that idea much thought?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Aug 21 2004, 02:41 PM
So, to clarify things Duane, you aren't opposed to the concept of including the entire skill bonus into the calculations for Domain Bonus.

I am in agreement that only ranks should be used for calaculating synergies and RP collection.

One topic that was previously discussed was a tweaking of the RP collection table, to be instead based on the average of the skills. Had you or anyone else given that idea much thought?

To clarify my stand - all synergy bonuses should be based on ranks alone. Whether this is for synergy bonuses to domain actions or for RP collection. That is the way the core system works and I see no real reason to change it.

When a check is being made, like for the success of a domain action, then all modifers should be used, ability mod, ranks, any applicable synergy bonuses, etc.


As far as the RP gaining table goes, well that is why this chapter is up for discussion. As I have said before I am going on sabbatical (it was supposed to start today, but there is one poll left that has to run its course before I feel I can go). Because of this I won't be available to do the tweaking and changes, that will be up to those on the boards/mailserv.

[Athos69]

To clarify my stand - all synergy bonuses should be based on ranks alone. Whether this is for synergy bonuses to domain actions or for RP collection. That is the way the core system works and I see no real reason to change it.

When a check is being made, like for the success of a domain action, then all modifers should be used, ability mod, ranks, any applicable synergy bonuses, etc.

I am in full agreement with you on this Duane. The only thing that we will have to work on is gettign the right balance point for the divisor from Skill bonus to Domain Bonus.

5, as it currently sits will result in an inflation of domain skill bonuses, and the net result will be to make DCs of domain actions easier to achieve.

10, while it is easy to calculate, is going to make the domain DCs too difficult.

My gut feeling is to make 8 the magic number, unless we want to play with altering the DCs a bit in the Ch. 5 rewrite...

[Osprey]

The only thing that we will have to work on is gettign the right balance point for the divisor from Skill bonus to Domain Bonus.

5, as it currently sits will result in an inflation of domain skill bonuses, and the net result will be to make DCs of domain actions easier to achieve.

10, while it is easy to calculate, is going to make the domain DCs too difficult.

My gut feeling is to make 8 the magic number, unless we want to play with altering the DCs a bit in the Ch. 5 rewrite...

There is a different way to go about this besides changing the divisor - which is adjusting the base DC's for Domain Actions. Possibly raising base DC's to 15 instead of 10. The reason I prefer this approach is because it gives slightly more power to skills vs. RP. If you increase the divisor (especially to something as high as 8&#33, it makes RP even more powerful than in the BRCS. As it is, RP will always remain the utterly dominant power in domain actions, but this way skills will have slightly bigger effects seperate from RP - which I think makes for a more interesting game where the competence of regents remain significant factors.

Also keep in mind, general skill bonuses tend to be less than actual ranks, especially for higher level characters, so don't get too carried away by over-compensating for fear of skill bonuses making things too easy.

Osprey

[Don E]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Aug 22 2004, 12:43 AM
To clarify my stand - all synergy bonuses should be based on ranks alone. Whether this is for synergy bonuses to domain actions or for RP collection. That is the way the core system works and I see no real reason to change it.

I would personally much prefer to see the whole skill bonus applied to domain checks. I think the main difference in our point of view is that you only think of it as a synergy bonus, being godd at one think helps doing something else, while I see it as an application of the relevant skill. IMO it is not so much that the Administreate skill can have a synergy bonus on e.g. the Rule Holding action, but rather that it is the skill being used mutliple times during said action. The same action could be played out 'adventure' style with the Administration skill being used repeatedly, and hence the whole skill bonus should be applied.

[Athos69]

Don, I don't think that Duane was arguing that Domain scale skill bonuses were synergy at all. I think that you two are on the same side with this one.

What Duane was saying (as far as I can see) is that Synergy bonuses must always be determined by ranks in a skill, not modified by anything else. Domain skill bonuses are a seperate beast that should take into accountsynergies, feats and raw ability.

[Don E]

Quite interesting that we should be discussing what another poster actually means

At the moment the BRCS writeup have domain action bonuses derived from ranks only, and as Duane and others have argued this is a synergy bonus and should be kept in line with the core rules. I don't see this as a good comparison, and would like this changed so all domain actions gain a bonus from the whole skill total as opposed to the current situation where we have some action gaining a synergy bonus from ranks and other actions that can be influenced by straight skill checks. IMO unnecessary complication.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Don E@Aug 22 2004, 02:55 AM
Quite interesting that we should be discussing what another poster actually means

At the moment the BRCS writeup have domain action bonuses derived from ranks only, and as Duane and others have argued this is a synergy bonus and should be kept in line with the core rules. I don't see this as a good comparison, and would like this changed so all domain actions gain a bonus from the whole skill total as opposed to the current situation where we have some action gaining a synergy bonus from ranks and other actions that can be influenced by straight skill checks. IMO unnecessary complication.

All right these seem to be the sections of the BRCS-playtest that are inquestion:

Resolving actions (BRCS-playtest pg 103)

“Many require a domain action check. A domain action check is the roll of a 1d20 plus any modifiers.”

Skill modifier (pg 103)

“(Full domain actions only) +1 for every 5 ranks that the regent has in the relevent skill.”


The bonus to domain actions is indeed a synergy bonus. I don't see how that can be read in any other manner.

The actual action check roll being made counts all modifiers, including appropriate ability modifier.


If the synergy bonus includes all modifiers, then natural ability (as well as feats) are being counted twice. This is against the concepts of the core rules.

The reason that this bonus was inserted was to make some sort of synergy bonus when using a skill at the domain level. Since the skills in question are intended for personal use level in the first place.

An alternative, that would meet all the rules' intent is to just drop the skill rank synergy bonus entirely from the situation. That is to delete the latter paragraph.

Either version works for me since they are both in line with core rules. Either being to have the synergy bonus be a synergy bonus (i.e., ranks only) or to drop the domain level synergy bonus entirely.

[RaspK_FOG]

This is not the first time such a thing has cropped up, and it has already been proven that core rules do not go along with this way of thinking for a number of reasons (Irdeggman layed it out quite as good as any could have), so I say we drop it, OK?

Any art teacher can tell you that talented people only have a gift to BECOME better; a student with little talent who has given everything to his exercise can be better than another student with lots of talent who has never exercised.

[Osprey]

The actual action check roll being made counts all modifiers, including appropriate ability modifier.

Where do you derive this from? If the synergy bonus is based only on ranks, at what point does an ability modifier, for ex. the regent's Intelligence, play into the current BRCS system? Not at all, as far as I can tell (and I just double-checked that to be certain).

The way you're describing it, it sounds like a character with 18 intelligence and 12 ranks in Administrate would get +6 to Rule Province: +4 his Intelligence modifier, +2 from his Admin. synergy bonus...
I have a feeling this isn't what you're getting at, but this is what it sounds like.

If the synergy bonus includes all modifiers, then natural ability (as well as feats) are being counted twice. This is against the concepts of the core rules.

Here again your argument breaks down when there never was a system to include ability modifiers in the first place.

Regarding domain actions, core rules, and alternatives, I'd like to make a few points:

1. There are NO core rules regarding Domain Actions - the closest thing to core rules are from 2e Birthright. Applying a 3e action template to them was a BRCS invention, which means it was playtest material, not dogma. We are discussing the merits and flaws of this system and what changes we think could improve domain rules for the revision. I for one am glad to not be beholden to a set of core rules here.

2. In the core rules synergy bonuses are ONLY applied as a bonus from one skill to another. Furthermore, this system is rather strict in its application: 5 ranks gives a +2 bonus to another skill, and an additional +2 bonus per 20 ranks in the epic system (so 25 ranks = +4 synergy bonus).

3. My opionoin is that the concept of synergy bonuses are excellent, the actual system not so hot - +1 per 5 ranks would have been a much better skill synergy system. However, since we can't change the core rules for the BRCS revision, I propose we scrap using the term "synergy bonus" in any way shape or form in
Ch. 5.

4. Instead we should call the relevant skill bonus something else: perhaps we could call it a Character Bonus, referring to the fact that a Character Action must be used to gain any skill/feat bonuses in the action. This way we are free to create the mechanic we think is most appropriate for the situation, as skill synergy bonuses are obviously inadequate for the job.

5. I'll reiterate: +1 per +5 skill bonus is a reasonable (and easy to calculate) bonus from skills if the DC's of domain actions are a little higher than current: DC 15 + target level will make things pretty challenging.

The one exception here is ruling provinces: DC 15+ will make things almost impossible for upper levels, and those upper levels will still only be reachable by regents with every possible feat (Regent Focus, Master Administrator, Skill Focus: Administrate), maxed out skill, and a lot of luck and GB to boot! I guess it depends just how slow you like growth to be, and how much you prefer the game be based on the luck of the d20... me, I'd rather keep Rule Province at DC 10 + target level, since only province attitude, skill bonus, and feat bonus apply here, and you only get one chance per season.

Osprey