Human Wizards

[Oyvind Gronnesby]

The discussion about the source depletion (see earlier) gave me a (good?)
idea.
Since the normal human magician can only cast certain spells, and only
blooded humans may become Wizards.
What if the Wizards would have to use of their bloodline strength to cast
magic that they normally wouldn't be able to do as magicians (for example
one point per level of the spell). With this, all human Wizards would be
desperate for more bloodline strength (at carefull with what spells they
cast).
Also you could create some pretty nasty wizard bloodcults that always hunts
for more blooded people that they can steal the bloodline from (hehe,
regents would be a primary target wouldn't they :-)


Oyvind Gronnesby

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 11:48 PM 8/8/98 +0200, Oyvind wrote:
>The discussion about the source depletion (see earlier) gave me a (good?)
>idea.
>Since the normal human magician can only cast certain spells, and only
>blooded humans may become Wizards.
>What if the Wizards would have to use of their bloodline strength to cast
>magic that they normally wouldn't be able to do as magicians (for example
>one point per level of the spell). With this, all human Wizards would be
>desperate for more bloodline strength (at carefull with what spells they
>cast).
>Also you could create some pretty nasty wizard bloodcults that always hunts
>for more blooded people that they can steal the bloodline from (hehe,
>regents would be a primary target wouldn't they :-)
>
>
This could get interesting, but it is very limiting on the wizards. I might
suggest instead that the wizards be able to sacrifice bloodline strength in
place of source requirements when casting a realm spell. Eg. allowing a
wizard with no sources/ley lines in a realm to cast a Death Plague (source
required 5?, this number may be incorrect, I don't have my books with me) by
permanently spending 5 points of bloodline strength. This would enable your
bloodcults to be politically active without having easily contested holdings.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Oyvind Gronnesby]

At 09:22 11.08.98 -0600, Pieter wrote:

>At 11:48 PM 8/8/98 +0200, Oyvind wrote:
>>Since the normal human magician can only cast certain spells, and only
>>blooded humans may become Wizards.
>>What if the Wizards would have to use of their bloodline strength to cast
>>magic that they normally wouldn't be able to do as magicians (for example
>>one point per level of the spell). With this, all human Wizards would be
>>desperate for more bloodline strength (at carefull with what spells they
>>cast).

>This could get interesting, but it is very limiting on the wizards. I might
>suggest instead that the wizards be able to sacrifice bloodline strength in
>place of source requirements when casting a realm spell. Eg. allowing a
>wizard with no sources/ley lines in a realm to cast a Death Plague (source
>required 5?, this number may be incorrect, I don't have my books with me) by
>permanently spending 5 points of bloodline strength. This would enable your
>bloodcults to be politically active without having easily contested holdings.

Yeah, but look at it this way. All magicians can cast all spells of all
groups up to level 4. If a wizard is mighty enough to cast 5th level spells
he'll already be so mighty that he might have surpassed others of the same
level of different classes (e.g. fighters). For player characters this
would mean that they would have to be of some considerable power before
having to use Bloodline Strength.
And this is only for human wizards (elven wizards, which can draw from the
magic of the land does not have to use bloodline strength).

Another option is to say that the wizard can cast aditional spells (not
only those he memorized) with the usage of Bloodline Strength.
Alternately, a magician that becomes blooded, his only hope of casting
spells that were not available before is to use of his prescious Bloodline
Strength.


Oyvind Gronnesby

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 02:55 PM 8/12/98 +0200, Oyvind wrote:
>At 09:22 11.08.98 -0600, Pieter wrote:
>
>>At 11:48 PM 8/8/98 +0200, Oyvind wrote:
>>>Since the normal human magician can only cast certain spells, and only
>>>blooded humans may become Wizards.
>>>What if the Wizards would have to use of their bloodline strength to cast
>>>magic that they normally wouldn't be able to do as magicians (for example
>>>one point per level of the spell). With this, all human Wizards would be
>>>desperate for more bloodline strength (at carefull with what spells they
>>>cast).
>
>>This could get interesting, but it is very limiting on the wizards. I might
>>suggest instead that the wizards be able to sacrifice bloodline strength in
>>place of source requirements when casting a realm spell. Eg. allowing a
>>wizard with no sources/ley lines in a realm to cast a Death Plague (source
>>required 5?, this number may be incorrect, I don't have my books with me) by
>>permanently spending 5 points of bloodline strength. This would enable your
>>bloodcults to be politically active without having easily contested holdings.
>
>Yeah, but look at it this way. All magicians can cast all spells of all
>groups up to level 4.
Excuse me, I think you have a mistake here. Magicians can cast spells up to
level 2 in all schools.

> If a wizard is mighty enough to cast 5th level spells
>he'll already be so mighty that he might have surpassed others of the same
>level of different classes (e.g. fighters).
Well, yes high level wizards actually become more powerful than fighters.
On the other hand the transition occurs between 9th and 12th levels which is
generally uncommon in Birthright campaigns. And they do not particularly
exceed the power of clerics.

> For player characters this
>would mean that they would have to be of some considerable power before
>having to use Bloodline Strength.
No, I believe you have misinterpreted me here. I am only suggesting such a
mechanic for realm spells, which would allow you bloodcults to use realm
spells without needing to control sources. The use of realm spells is not
greatly restricted by wizard level, rather it is usually controlled by
available sources and special component levels. For example, the above Death
Plague spell can devestate multiple provinces and only requires a ?7th
level? (I don't have my book with me) wizard to cast it. Mass Destruction
on requires a ?5th? level wizard to cast it.

>And this is only for human wizards (elven wizards, which can draw from the
>magic of the land does not have to use bloodline strength).
>
>Another option is to say that the wizard can cast aditional spells (not
>only those he memorized) with the usage of Bloodline Strength.
>Alternately, a magician that becomes blooded, his only hope of casting
>spells that were not available before is to use of his prescious Bloodline
>Strength.
The possibility of a magician becoming blooded has been discussed on this
list. The conscencus was that he will rapidly become a true wizard (he may
need to pay an XP penalty).

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Tim Nutting]

I don't feel that the spark of divine essence in a scion is enough energy
to cast a full scale realm spell. Those spells are cast by forging
mebhaighl into a tangible result. That energy is the combined essence of
every living plant and natural formation in a given province. If a scion
has comparable energies in his body, then bloodtheft ought to be pretty
impressive, if not downright explosive.

Take a look at the means that are already available to cast spells without
a source, those nifty mebhaighl stones from the Book of Magecraft. At most
they give a +1 to a source holding or allow a character to cast a Source 1
spell. Such items are extremely rare. The proposition of allowing a scion
with a major bloodline and score of say 25 to tap that energy to cast realm
spells is equivalent to saying that scion A has a level 25 source holding
in his body...

Further, why would one even want to have the trouble of maintaining a
Source holding at all? A bloody minded warlord could easily employ five
moderate level blooded wizards of similar minds and keep them with a ready
supply of noble children for easy consumption. Why, a full scale breeding
class could evolve, a little extreme, but why not? In our own history we
have had stranger situations. (Eleanor Bathory? 600 or so slain so she
could bathe in their blood to maintain her youthful appearance?)

Later!

Tim

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 12:48 PM 8/12/98 -0700, Tim wrote:
>I don't feel that the spark of divine essence in a scion is enough energy
>to cast a full scale realm spell. Those spells are cast by forging
>mebhaighl into a tangible result. That energy is the combined essence of
>every living plant and natural formation in a given province. If a scion
>has comparable energies in his body, then bloodtheft ought to be pretty
>impressive, if not downright explosive.
>
IMC, bloodtheft is a very impressive business. It also doesn't happen very
often.

>Take a look at the means that are already available to cast spells without
>a source, those nifty mebhaighl stones from the Book of Magecraft. At most
>they give a +1 to a source holding or allow a character to cast a Source 1
>spell. Such items are extremely rare. The proposition of allowing a scion
>with a major bloodline and score of say 25 to tap that energy to cast realm
>spells is equivalent to saying that scion A has a level 25 source holding
>in his body...
>
No, that is not true. He has enough energy stored in his body to emulate a
level 25 source once, and then he has no more bloodline. A source provides
a continuous supply of mebhaigal, this method would be a one-shot thing. He
is permanently divesting himself of bloodstrength while a source is unharmed
by use. Mebhaighl stones are extremeley rare because divine life essence is
more attracted to living things (that it can pervert/take over, see the
awnsheglien) than it is to being trapped in lifeless crystals. Also note
that such stones do not contain as much power as the other stones presented,
the ?shiebshglien? (the stones that raise your bloodline strength, eg, the
necklace, the Favour of Brenna). It seems clear that divine essence is at
least as powerful a force as Mebhaigal, as confirmed by assorted priests
realm spells.

>Further, why would one even want to have the trouble of maintaining a
>Source holding at all? A bloody minded warlord could easily employ five
>moderate level blooded wizards of similar minds and keep them with a ready
>supply of noble children for easy consumption. Why, a full scale breeding
>class could evolve, a little extreme, but why not? In our own history we
>have had stranger situations. (Eleanor Bathory? 600 or so slain so she
>could bathe in their blood to maintain her youthful appearance?)

Now this gets interesting, and also hits on one of the flaws in the
Birthright game mechanics. Specifically the rules for inheriting
bloodstrength. These have been discussed before and this will no doubt
start a new round. However, I follow conservation of energy as far as
inheritance of bloodlines. ie. Total bloodline strength of dad + mom =
total bloodline strength of all the kids. Meanwhile, back in the land of
the bloody minded warlord, well, a) where is he going to find 5 similarly
minded moderate level blooded wizards b) Is by any chance the peasant class
going to rebel against him at this point c) Are his neighbors going to just
sit around and wait while he sets his breeding program up. In fact, this
whole scenario reminds me of something that was proposed earlier on this
list, that is the Gorgon setting up a harem of blooded females, and
bloodthefting all the resulting children to gain bloodstrength. By the
standard birthright inheritance rules this works, but nobody on the list was
very happy about the idea, and there are some pretty sadistic DM's on this
list.

>Later!
>
>Tim
>************************************************* **************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Tim Nutting]

> No, that is not true. He has enough energy stored in his body to emulate
a
> level 25 source once, and then he has no more bloodline. A source
provides
> a continuous supply of mebhaigal, this method would be a one-shot thing.
He
> is permanently divesting himself of bloodstrength while a source is
unharmed
> by use. Mebhaighl stones are extremeley rare because divine life essence
is
> more attracted to living things (that it can pervert/take over, see the
> awnsheglien) than it is to being trapped in lifeless crystals. Also note
> that such stones do not contain as much power as the other stones
presented,
> the ?shiebshglien? (the stones that raise your bloodline strength, eg,
the
> necklace, the Favour of Brenna). It seems clear that divine essence is
at
> least as powerful a force as Mebhaigal, as confirmed by assorted priests
> realm spells.

That is the critical difference here. I see that the divine spark that
makes a scion what he is as being far LESS powerful than 1 single level of
Source holding. In my mind, the combined total essence of all natural life
within a roughly 900 square mile area far exceeds the power within a scion.
That is because the regent is such a pitiful shadow of a god, barely able
to affect his realm by force of will, but still able to do so in limited
fashions (Regency Points)

All the general information I have read concerning realm spells indicates
to me that it is only the bloodline that allows a person to tap the
mebhaigl, and that were a lesser being to even attempt to use this magic,
it would completely burn him or her out. Consuming an entire bloodline
(last of line, tighmaevril weapon) does no such thing. It was always my
impression that casting a realm spell is like trying to grab the tail of a
dragon and make it go the way you want for a little while.

> Now this gets interesting, and also hits on one of the flaws in the
> Birthright game mechanics. Specifically the rules for inheriting
> bloodstrength.

Not a weakness. If this energy is limited, then why does the child's
conception not rob the parents of their energy? I assume by flaw you must
mean that the parents should only have a limited supply of blood strength
to pass out, but it doesn't seem that they are passing it out, does it?
When powers produce offspring, it is certainly not in the "normal" fashion,
but notheless, these beings seem to have almost limitless reserves of
power, and if producing offspring hurt them overmuch, I have a hard time
believing that they would choose to do so.

Conservation of energy implies that there is a limited supply. Certainly
the True lines have dissappeared, but how few of them were there, and how
long can a line breed true without the family tree starting to look like a
stump? Also, how does one determine just how many children one will have
ahead of time? If the total energy of the parents is mom + dad, then why
doesn't the first born get it all? He might well be the only child. Do
the parents choose to only give their child so much strength?

Genetically and biologically, a new child is a meld of the parents. It
stands to reason then that the divine essence of the child would also be
determined similarily. The strongest line wins out.

> Meanwhile, back in the land of
> the bloody minded warlord, well, a) where is he going to find 5 similarly
> minded moderate level blooded wizards b) Is by any chance the peasant
class
> going to rebel against him at this point c) Are his neighbors going to
just
> sit around and wait while he sets his breeding program up....

1) Changing the mechanics, especially these mechanics (source/bloodpoints
relation) means also changing the history. The mechanics have dictated
through the game that it is only possible to cast realm magic in the last
1500 years controlling a source. If that is no longer the case, it
certainly should not change overnight, and bango-whis-wow, I'm the only
mage that can do this. There's no way that the Gorgon, Rhuobhe, the
Magian, the White Witch, and every other magic using awnshegh missed out on
this one.

2) By changing history, you change the evolution of the culture. If blood
strength is critical in the casting of the powerful magics, then less
scrupulous individuals start to see things differenlty. the peasant class
revolting? Exactly how many centuries did ancient civilizations manage to
uphold human sacrfice as a proper method of worhsip. In the published
setting, this is a mainstream belief in the Prince of Terror's church.
Certain churches could not even come close to supporting this, but
underground cults have allways existed, far from the mainstream, and even
Haelyn accepts evil worhsipers. Further, in a "properly" bred society fed
the right lies, one could even instill in the people a certain sense of
obligation, a concept that this noble sacrifice for the power of their
benevolent rulers, while harsh, is necessary and justified. There is no
instant change here, no "dangit, Gavin, stop killing your nobles! I'm
gonna come beat you up now"

3) Changing this mechanic cheapens the power of realm magic. Make a realm
spell available to any punk wizard with a high enough level and some
bloodline points to burn (especially if the bastard got lucky and has a
tighmaevril weapon and a hostage) completely changes how realm magic, and
its awsome powers are controlled. Certainly a kings realm is far less
safe. Now every noble family in the land with a younger son could afford a
few very simple, 1 point wonder realm spells and make a revolt against the
king much easier, especially if those nasty restriction of RPs are dropped
in favor of the sacrifice these scions are making.

I guess I could be classed as a sadistic DM. :)

Tim

[Oyvind Gronnesby]

>>Yeah, but look at it this way. All magicians can cast all spells of all
>>groups up to level 4.
>Excuse me, I think you have a mistake here. Magicians can cast spells up to
>level 2 in all schools.
Sorry, I didn't have my books so I took a wild guess.

>> For player characters this
>>would mean that they would have to be of some considerable power before
>>having to use Bloodline Strength.
>No, I believe you have misinterpreted me here. I am only suggesting such a
>mechanic for realm spells, which would allow you bloodcults to use realm
>spells without needing to control sources. The use of realm spells is not
>greatly restricted by wizard level, rather it is usually controlled by
>available sources and special component levels. For example, the above Death
>Plague spell can devestate multiple provinces and only requires a ?7th
>level? (I don't have my book with me) wizard to cast it. Mass Destruction
>on requires a ?5th? level wizard to cast it.

I agree with you on the usage of Bloodline Strength when casting some ofthe
most powerful Realm Magic spells, (especially since these can simply
destroy a nation if you make the proper preperations for them).
But then, some of the Realm Spells that are available to clerics are also
quite devastating (especially a few of those in the Book of Priestcraft).
But Priests can be halted by the Gods (the DM :-)


Oyvind Gronnesby

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

OK, this messgage is from a LONG time ago (at least a few weeks ago), so
you can tell I'm WAY behind in my messages. Nevertheless, it brought up a
thought that I have been kicking around for a while back in the dusty
recesses of my mind.

On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Oyvind Gronnesby wrote:

> The discussion about the source depletion (see earlier) gave me a (good?)
> idea.
> Since the normal human magician can only cast certain spells, and only
> blooded humans may become Wizards.
> What if the Wizards would have to use of their bloodline strength to cast
> magic that they normally wouldn't be able to do as magicians (for example
> one point per level of the spell). With this, all human Wizards would be
> desperate for more bloodline strength (at carefull with what spells they
> cast).
> Also you could create some pretty nasty wizard bloodcults that always hunts
> for more blooded people that they can steal the bloodline from (hehe,
> regents would be a primary target wouldn't they :-)

The thought that I had was how about allowing wizards to spend their
bloodline points on Permanency spells rather than CON points. Or, if you
think this makes magical items too easy to make, 10 points of bloodline
strength. That and for Wish spells, which might require 10 points of
bloodline strength rather then a year of life (I think I'm remembering
these "sacrifices" correctly--you get the idea). Does this sound like a
good idea to other DM's? Am I missing some obviously-unbalancing factor
here?

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu