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Thread: Elven alignment
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09-03-1998, 04:43 AM #11DKEvermore@aol.coGuest
Elven alignment
In a message dated 9/2/98 7:33:16 PM, GeeMan@linkline.com writes:
>And you know what? It's better imbalanced. A balanced game is boring.
> You might
>as well play checkers.
>
An imbalanced game is like a game of Axis & Allies. Unless you limit (i.e.
change the rules) one country and you have competent players, your outcome
will always be the same.
At least in a game of "checkers", given equal skill you won't necessarily know
the outcome.
If you are giving one PC an advantage over another, then a player is going to
feel useless in more situations. This is not "interesting". It's the
imbalanced game that is "boring".
And by the way, you took my statements out of context. I said that AD&D was
more or less balanced within itself, but when you change the races, as
Birthright does, then you change the balance of the game. Unless you come up
with an alternate way of balancing it. And that is what I'm _still_ waiting
for an answer to (regarding dual-classing elves).
Mind you I can not argue the logic of having elves dual-class. In this I
actually agree. I'm really not trying to start an argument, I'm honestly
asking for input as to what can be done to balance elves as a PC race if given
the power to dual-class like humans.
- -DKE
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09-03-1998, 06:46 AM #12Gary V. FossGuest
Elven alignment
DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
> An imbalanced game is like a game of Axis & Allies. Unless you limit (i.e.
> change the rules) one country and you have competent players, your outcome
> will always be the same.
>
> At least in a game of "checkers", given equal skill you won't necessarily know
> the outcome.
I don't think the game imbalance of BR is quite as drastic as that. I mean, if
the game were imbalanced wouldn't the conclusion already be a foregone
conclusion? Besides, people play the game with the imbalances intact. That's
what makes it interesting.
> If you are giving one PC an advantage over another, then a player is going to
> feel useless in more situations. This is not "interesting". It's the
> imbalanced game that is "boring".
> And by the way, you took my statements out of context. I said that AD&D was
> more or less balanced within itself, but when you change the races, as
> Birthright does, then you change the balance of the game. Unless you come up
> with an alternate way of balancing it. And that is what I'm _still_ waiting
> for an answer to (regarding dual-classing elves).
How did I take your comments out of context? I put your whole message at the top
of mine....
> Mind you I can not argue the logic of having elves dual-class. In this I
> actually agree. I'm really not trying to start an argument, I'm honestly
> asking for input as to what can be done to balance elves as a PC race if given
> the power to dual-class like humans.
How about making humans able to multi-class like elves? Or making elves unable to
multi-class? Or making both options open to either race?
Gary
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09-03-1998, 12:57 PM #13DKEvermore@aol.coGuest
Elven alignment
In a message dated 09-03-1998 2:03:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:
> I don't think the game imbalance of BR is quite as drastic as that. I mean,
> if
> the game were imbalanced wouldn't the conclusion already be a foregone
> conclusion? Besides, people play the game with the imbalances intact.
That'
> s
> what makes it interesting.
Exactly. It was an drastic example, just like your checkers example. That's
why I posted it.
>
> > Mind you I can not argue the logic of having elves dual-class. In this I
> > actually agree. I'm really not trying to start an argument, I'm honestly
> > asking for input as to what can be done to balance elves as a PC race if
> given
> > the power to dual-class like humans.
>
> How about making humans able to multi-class like elves? Or making elves
> unable to
> multi-class? Or making both options open to either race?
Okay, why do you think humans should be able to multiclass? I don't think
either of the above are good solutions, because then you're going to through
out of whack dwarf and halfling and half elf characters. You'd have to change
the multi- and dual-class rules for all those races! It'd be better (and
simpler) to limit the elves.
- -DKE
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09-03-1998, 02:00 PM #14Gary V. FossGuest
Elven alignment
DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
> Okay, why do you think humans should be able to multiclass? I don't think
> either of the above are good solutions, because then you're going to through
> out of whack dwarf and halfling and half elf characters. You'd have to change
> the multi- and dual-class rules for all those races! It'd be better (and
> simpler) to limit the elves.
Well, I've never really worried about this before.... It's just that the rules on
class, multi-classing and dual-classing came up and it occurs to me that the way
they are set up doesn't really make much sense. I don't know what the
justification is for having only demi-humans multi-class or allowing only humans
to dual-class. Why the difference? I don't really see how it makes the game more
balanced, or how it makes it more realistic, or how it is justified given the
characteristics of AD&D races.
Don't get me wrong. I haven't allowed dual-classed elves or multi-classed humans
in my own campaigns. I hadn't really dedicated much thought to it, but now that I
do, it doesn't make much sense.
I also don't think the dual-classing rules make much sense either. Once you drop
one profession you cannot learn anything more about it ever again? And you can't
use the skills you learned before until you become similarly skilled in your new
profession? The justification for this ruling doesn't make much sense to me.
Your character has to dedicate himself to his new profession or he won't "learn"
the proper way of doing things. How would a multi-class character ever learn
then?
Say you're a lawyer who has passed the BAR but before you begin your career you
decide to become a doctor, so you drop your briefs and start studying anatomy.
(Sorry, couldn't resist the underwear joke.) In an AD&D world after you pass your
residency and start practicing you could start acting like a lawyer again, right?
Why couldn't you decide to drop your doctoring, go back to law and start gaining
experience in that profession again? Why couldn't you be a lawyer-doctor? (I
actually know one of these guys in real life, so it's not impossible.)
The only solution I can see is to eleminate multi- or dual-classing, or to make
either an option for any race in the game (one or the other not both! No
Fighter/Priests who later decide to become Thief/Mages!) Either that or you just
drop this whole class system entirely and go with a skill based gaming system
instead.
Gary
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09-04-1998, 03:08 PM #15Darryl WillisGuest
Elven alignment
> Say you're a lawyer who has passed the BAR but before you begin your
career you
> decide to become a doctor, so you drop your briefs and start studying
anatomy.
> (Sorry, couldn't resist the underwear joke.) In an AD&D world after you
pass your
> residency and start practicing you could start acting like a lawyer
again, right?
> Why couldn't you decide to drop your doctoring, go back to law and start
gaining
> experience in that profession again? Why couldn't you be a
lawyer-doctor? (I
> actually know one of these guys in real life, so it's not impossible.)
Ohmigosh....we're not {gasp} discussing the REALISM of the AD&D game here,
are we? It's not supposed to be realistic! Fantasy...that's the whole
style of gaming. Making it realistic would make it boring. Putting that
aside, though, what's the introduction to the DMG say? If you don't like a
rule, change it. That's all you need to do. Change it. I personally
don't wanna screw around with it, under the assumption that in 9 years,
since '89, the 2nd edition of AD&D should be pretty well playtested. Being
a revision of, obviously, the 1st edition game, which has been around since
before God, it's had some time to iron out imbalances. I say, let 'em
print the game. If I don't like somethin', I'm changin' it.
Sorry for ranting...
- -Darryl
darryl42@gate.net
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09-06-1998, 02:18 AM #16BenandAmyGuest
Elven alignment
Is everyone forgetting that elves can't make use of temple holdings or
the potential income to be derived from them?
That's a big disadvantage. I think it balances out just fine.
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09-08-1998, 08:28 AM #17Tim NuttingGuest
Elven alignment
> Without a balanced game you will suddenly find almost all your players
playing
> only one race. It's that simple.
I would submit that this depends upon the playing group and the amount of
control the DM exercises over player character creation. In my game it is a
clear sight that singly elves are quite superior to humans, but I only have 1/4
demi-human composition in my party. By and large most of my players WANT to
play humans, regardless.
>Now, I believe AD&D can NOT be balanced
> well. At least not and match Birthright's spirit quite right. It's simply
> not in the system. AD&D was designed with some basic ideas about demi-humans
> and humans that were changed with the Birthright setting. I feel the change
> was for the better story-wise, but not in terms of the AD&D mechanics. And
> I'm really only talking about the *standard* AD&D rules, not the cool Domain
> stuff Birthright introduced. In terms of the AD&D system imbalance within
the
> Birthright setting, I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong, but I don't
> think it'll happen. Personally, I dropped using AD&D to run Birthright.
>
> Later!
> DKEvermore
What do you use?
Tim Nutting
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