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Thread: Elven alignment

  1. #1
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    Elven alignment

    Greetings,
    I've often seen it written that Rhuobhe has 'lost touch' with the elven way of life by becoming NE and thus shifting towards lawfulness from the traditional elven chaotic alignment. However:

    Fhileraene and Isaelie are TN, and Rhiana of Coullabhie is LN! Also some other notable elves are non-chaotic. Have they all 'lost touch' then?

    ******************
    Aleksei Andrievski
    aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
    solmyr@kolumbus.fi
    Visit the Archmage's Tower at
    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

  2. #2
    LordSchmit@aol.co
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    In a message dated 9/1/98 8:57:32 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
    solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes:

    > Greetings,
    > I've often seen it written that Rhuobhe has 'lost touch' with the elven way
    > of life by becoming NE and thus shifting towards lawfulness from the
    > traditional elven chaotic alignment. However:
    >
    > Fhileraene and Isaelie are TN, and Rhiana of Coullabhie is LN! Also some
    > other notable elves are non-chaotic. Have they all 'lost touch' then?

    More likely just confusion among the authors. They may not have been told that
    Cerilian elves are all almost always Chaotic.

  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    LordSchmit@aol.com wrote:

    > In a message dated 9/1/98 8:57:32 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
    > solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes:
    >
    > > Greetings,
    > > I've often seen it written that Rhuobhe has 'lost touch' with the elven way
    > > of life by becoming NE and thus shifting towards lawfulness from the
    > > traditional elven chaotic alignment. However:
    > >
    > > Fhileraene and Isaelie are TN, and Rhiana of Coullabhie is LN! Also some
    > > other notable elves are non-chaotic. Have they all 'lost touch' then?
    >
    > More likely just confusion among the authors. They may not have been told that
    > Cerilian elves are all almost always Chaotic.

    I'd agree with this. Rhoubhe doesn't seem to be any more out of touch than any
    other political leader. I suppose if you were going to make an analogy to modern
    politicians, Rhoubhe is just a member of the extreme right politically.

    I chose the right cuz they were in power before the "commoners" came along and
    represent the "conservative" or traditional way of thinking, at least in elven
    politics. You could just as easily make him an extremist tree-hugger, though, so
    please no one take offense at my categorization.)

    Some of the other rulers of elven lands would be categorized as
    liberal--Tuarhieval--maybe Rhuannach is "moderate" and Sielwode "conservative."
    These are matters of interpretation, however, so you could see things quite
    differently.

    The point is, however, that they are all members of the same "political party" and
    would find themselves agreeing with one another more often than disagreeing. At
    least, that's my take on it.

    Gary

  4. #4
    James Ray
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    I dunno - Ruins of Empire makes reference to his change of alignment,
    towards N and E, rather than the "traditional" CN. His Card sheet from the
    boxed sheet is what makes note of his departure from the "Elven" way, and
    is similarly unfit to drive the humans from Cerilia.

    James
    - ----------
    > From: Gary V. Foss
    > I'd agree with this. Rhoubhe doesn't seem to be any more out of touch
    than any other political leader. .

  5. #5
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    James Ray wrote:

    > I dunno - Ruins of Empire makes reference to his change of alignment,
    > towards N and E, rather than the "traditional" CN. His Card sheet from the
    > boxed sheet is what makes note of his departure from the "Elven" way, and
    > is similarly unfit to drive the humans from Cerilia.

    But are his views really out of line with the "elven" way? The question is
    whether the characterization of him in the RoE book and his cardsheet really
    makes sense. Personally, I don't think so. In fact, I think the opposite is
    true, Roubhe would be very charismatic to elves, and his views would be
    appealing as well to many of them. To me, Roubhe is kind of a super-elf, and
    his views are simply an extension of his extra-elfishness. The "liberal" elves
    are, well, less elven, aren't they? Some of them even breed with
    humans! Ew! How could they not help but be less elven then Roubhe?

    Gary

  6. #6
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    > > I dunno - Ruins of Empire makes reference to his change of alignment,
    > > towards N and E, rather than the "traditional" CN. His Card sheet
    from the
    > > boxed sheet is what makes note of his departure from the "Elven" way,
    and
    > > is similarly unfit to drive the humans from Cerilia.
    >
    > But are his views really out of line with the "elven" way? The question
    is
    > whether the characterization of him in the RoE book and his cardsheet
    really
    > makes sense. Personally, I don't think so. In fact, I think the
    opposite is
    > true, Roubhe would be very charismatic to elves, and his views would be
    > appealing as well to many of them. To me, Roubhe is kind of a
    super-elf, and
    > his views are simply an extension of his extra-elfishness. The
    "liberal" elves
    > are, well, less elven, aren't they? Some of them even breed with
    > humans! Ew! How could they not help but be less elven then Roubhe?
    >
    > Gary

    I think what the sheet says is that "...some [elves] feel..." indicating
    that, like in real life, the politics are not universal beliefs.
    Doubtless there will be strong elements (if not numerous ones) even in the
    ghallie Sidhe camp that feel that the Elf does not represent them. There
    is something to be said for an immortal that has stayed on the same goal
    for over 2,000 years. That's longer than some of them have been alive.
    Further aside from the alignment issue is his hatred. Elves are chaotic
    and shift to extremes from moment to moment, but by and large they are a
    happy people. They have conquered their own lusts for conquests, and are
    not wannabe overlords.

    That actually brings up one of my big problems with multi-/dual-classed
    characters, especially in Birthright. Elves are immortal. While we don't
    really think about it all that much, or at least I really did not, that
    means that Rhuobhe and others have been around for over 10,000 years. In
    that span of time a being can go very far. In fact, that ANY elf over
    1,000 years could still be considered 0-level is ridiculous. It is my
    contention that of all the races, the long lived ones should be the ones
    to have the dual-class ability, rather than be restricted to one career
    path for all time and ever and ever, amen.

    I take this concept from the Lian and Dylvana of Dennis L. McKiernan's
    world of Mithgar. His elves are remarkably similar to the BR elves (and
    his copyrights for the early books pre-date BR). His ideas are that for
    the length of time that an elf lives, there is no way that they will do
    the same thing. A being grows bored of doing a thing for 500 years and
    moves on to something else. In fact, one elf in his recent books said
    that he found that the crafts of the earth were the only things that
    really mattered over all, for politics were ephermal. A hero in one book
    had been a blacksmith, armorer, scribe, herdsman, farmer, statseman,
    explorer, hunter, warrior, bard.... and I got the feeling that that was
    just scratching the surface.

    Good Day
    Tim Nutting

  7. #7
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    In a message dated 09-02-1998 10:54:37 AM Central Daylight Time,
    zero@wiredweb.com writes:

    > That actually brings up one of my big problems with multi-/dual-classed
    > characters, especially in Birthright. Elves are immortal. While we don't
    > really think about it all that much, or at least I really did not, that
    > means that Rhuobhe and others have been around for over 10,000 years. In
    > that span of time a being can go very far. In fact, that ANY elf over
    > 1,000 years could still be considered 0-level is ridiculous. It is my
    > contention that of all the races, the long lived ones should be the ones
    > to have the dual-class ability, rather than be restricted to one career
    > path for all time and ever and ever, amen.
    >
    I believe you have bumped into simple mechanics on this one. This limitation
    has to do with AD&D game balancing mechanics--not so much the setting. My
    suggestion is that if you are unsatisfied with it, perhaps you might have to
    come up with ideas how to allow dual-classed elves and yet maintain game
    balance..

    - -DKE

  8. #8
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

    > I believe you have bumped into simple mechanics on this one. This limitation
    > has to do with AD&D game balancing mechanics--not so much the setting. My
    > suggestion is that if you are unsatisfied with it, perhaps you might have to
    > come up with ideas how to allow dual-classed elves and yet maintain game
    > balance..

    Isn't this reliance upon game balance kind of silly, though? Doesn't it make
    sense to toss it out? In Birthright characters can be inherently more powerful
    than other characters based upon where they rule, what kind of holdings they
    have, etc. Why not inequities based upon immortality? Immortals would simply be
    better off than humans. More experience, no nasty aging effects, etc.

    As for elves dual classing, the major problem is not their long lives but their
    ability scores, which are required to be pretty high according to the rules. It
    is debatable how often you would have characters switching classes given those
    rules.

    I've argued before that most elves would be of class and level. It would take an
    extreme amount of effort for them to avoid gaining experience over the centuries,
    and I just don't see being level 1 as something that difficult to achieve, the
    way I've seen it described in the thread about magic users in Cerilia and 1st
    level wizards.

    As for the ways to incorporate this into the game.... Well, things start getting
    a little hairy. Should we have super elven units to reflect that the members of
    it are 3-6th level fighters rather than 0? Enough mages running around to choke
    Elminster? What specific things should be done to reflect the long lives of
    elves?

    Gary

  9. #9
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    In a message dated 9/2/98 5:54:30 PM, GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

    >Isn't this reliance upon game balance kind of silly, though? Doesn't it
    >make
    >sense to toss it out? In Birthright characters can be inherently more
    >powerful
    >
    Without a balanced game you will suddenly find almost all your players playing
    only one race. It's that simple. Now, I believe AD&D can NOT be balanced
    well. At least not and match Birthright's spirit quite right. It's simply
    not in the system. AD&D was designed with some basic ideas about demi-humans
    and humans that were changed with the Birthright setting. I feel the change
    was for the better story-wise, but not in terms of the AD&D mechanics. And
    I'm really only talking about the *standard* AD&D rules, not the cool Domain
    stuff Birthright introduced. In terms of the AD&D system imbalance within the
    Birthright setting, I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong, but I don't
    think it'll happen. Personally, I dropped using AD&D to run Birthright.

    Later!
    DKEvermore

  10. #10
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven alignment

    DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

    > Without a balanced game you will suddenly find almost all your players playing
    > only one race. It's that simple. Now, I believe AD&D can NOT be balanced
    > well. At least not and match Birthright's spirit quite right. It's simply
    > not in the system. AD&D was designed with some basic ideas about demi-humans
    > and humans that were changed with the Birthright setting. I feel the change
    > was for the better story-wise, but not in terms of the AD&D mechanics. And
    > I'm really only talking about the *standard* AD&D rules, not the cool Domain
    > stuff Birthright introduced. In terms of the AD&D system imbalance within the
    > Birthright setting, I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong, but I don't
    > think it'll happen. Personally, I dropped using AD&D to run Birthright.

    I think you're kind of contradicting yourself here. "Without game balance all
    players will play only one race" and "AD&D can NOT be balanced"? All players
    don't play the same races AND the game is imbalanced. That's part of what makes
    the game interesting, dealing with the imbalances and inequities inherent in the
    game and among the PC races. I know people who just LOVE playing halflings. If
    the relative power of those characters was the only criteria for playing the game,
    nobody would play a halfling. Its the difference between a role-playing game and
    a war game.

    If you play other games, like some of the Superhero games, game balance is really
    kind of laughable. In BR, it is similarly ridiculous. The characters have the
    power of the gods in them? What could be more similar in AD&D terms to the
    "superpowers" of DC Heroes or Marvel? (Trade marks excluded because I don't feel
    like mucking about with them.) I mean, Rogr Aglondier's holdings are right next
    to the High Mage Aelies, and the RoE book makes out like they are constantly
    struggling over sources. Aelies wins. It's that simple. He's a 16th level guy.
    He'd crush Aglondier like a bug and still have time to go have a snack.

    In short, if you are going to play BR like a wargame, or a game of chess, then
    it's over pretty quickly. Game balance doesn't really exist given the setting.
    If you were going to try to put game balance in, all characters would start at 1st
    level (or some other agreed upon level) they would all have the same number of
    provinces and holdings, they would have no blood abilities, character races would
    have no significant differences, you'd have to revise character classes to make
    them more equal and ability scores would be based upon a static number rather than
    rolled up with dice. Otherwise, the game is imbalanced.

    And you know what? It's better imbalanced. A balanced game is boring. You might
    as well play checkers.

    Gary

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