View Poll Results: What BAB should the noble class Have?

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  • 1. Good BAB

    7 30.43%
  • 2. Average BAB

    14 60.87%
  • 3. BAB

    0 0%
  • 4. Other (please comment since there are only 3 options for BAB)

    1 4.35%
  • 5. Abstain

    1 4.35%
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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Here is another recent 'hot' topic that deserves some quantification.

    If you have a different idea for BAB please post it since there are only 3 options (good, average and poor).
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
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    I'm acvtually quite ambivalent on the BAB issue in regards to the Noble. As far as I am concerned, either a Good or Average BAB suits the class well, as I can see the arguments for both.

    Based on that, for the first time in a Poll, I have Abstained....
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  3. #3
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    I think this depends entirely on the focus of the class. If one go for the version with several different paths I think the average BAB would be best. If one opt for a class representing a typrical Anuirean lord then the higher BAB could be a better option.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Don E@Aug 8 2004, 09:55 PM
    I think this depends entirely on the focus of the class. If one go for the version with several different paths I think the average BAB would be best. If one opt for a class representing a typrical Anuirean lord then the higher BAB could be a better option.
    There is a problem basing this on the Anuirean lords, since they have a cultural disposition towards empire building. IMO this is where people are getting confused on the noble issue.

    There seems to be common perception that the noble is a warrior-ruler. There is actually nothing in the cultural text (2nd or BRCS) to give the impression that the class is limited to Anuire. Brecht and Khinasi cultures are very specifically noble based. But the Brecht are specifically not a warrior based society hence the default of warrior-ruler just doesn't fit for the average Brecht noble. In Khinasi it could make more sense they are warrior-scholars and in Anuire it makes a lot of sense. But a class shouldn't be based on a single culture - that is what there is no standard human (and common language) in Cerilia.

    If one looks to supporting classes (from WotC and other companies) one can readily see that this is not the case. The aristocrat, the NPC equivalent of noble, is most definitely not a warrior-ruler based class.

    A class exclusive to a single culture is a prestige class and that is how it should be presented, IMO, if that is the way people want it.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
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    I voted average. Like irdeggman said, this isn't a warrior-noble per se. If you want to play an Anuirean warrior-noble, multiclass a few fighter-levels. Levels in the noble-class should focus on leadership and the benefits of nobility - things that are not covered by the other classes.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    There seems to be common perception that the noble is a warrior-ruler. There is actually nothing in the cultural text (2nd or BRCS) to give the impression that the class is limited to Anuire. Brecht and Khinasi cultures are very specifically noble based. But the Brecht are specifically not a warrior based society hence the default of warrior-ruler just doesn't fit for the average Brecht noble. In Khinasi it could make more sense they are warrior-scholars and in Anuire it makes a lot of sense. But a class shouldn't be based on a single culture - that is what there is no standard human (and common language) in Cerilia.
    So exactly what does distinguuish or exemplify the Brecht nobility? What, for instance, makes a noble class more fitting than the Rogue? While there is a focus on commerce, are the landed nobility often guilders, or are they generally seperate? And if seperate, what IS their role in society? I would think defending the land is pretty important to landed nobility in any culture. It's not as if the Brecht have entirely peaceful borders, what with the Gorgon and many humanoids filling the mountains and pirates a recurring problem in the Great Bay.

    The idea of landed nobility being warriors is based on the role of feudal lords in medieval society - defense of the realm was their primary role, hence the reason they always led the fighting.

  7. #7
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I think we should take a step back and consider the situation as it has come to be: is the Noble we are going to be using the aristocratic example of a landed courtier, or is he a war-trained defender of the realm?

    While people will argue that Anuire is a good example of the second and Brechtur a good example of the first, I have to say that multi-classing is always the best way to make something fit something as different as two such cultures.

    The typical Brecht noble is a noble/rogue, while the typical Anuirean noble is a fighter/noble. It would only make sence that a Khinasi noble is a noble/wizard, or a fighter/noble perhaps. The only example which leads to a non-militarian noble is that of the Brecht noble, since even the Khinasi have the "defend the realm" attitude; the former has a more "make money" attitude.

    This leads to the simple conclusion that most nobles have an at least average BAB progression. However, there is this other issue...

    Wouldn't multiclassing actually present a better way to handle BAB and its role? For example, a typical Mhorien noble receives military training (especially the princes), but as the novel "The Falcon and the Wolf" indicates, there are high-standing nobles with little capacity even in sword-swinging! This suggests an average BAB, since even a couple of levels in a fighting-oriented class really make a difference.

    The whole point is this: make it obvious that nobles tend to be multiclassed. A good idea would be to signify that nobles cannot choose just any "occupation" without being looked down; this could be treated like Oriental Adventures' system of honourable and dishonourable skills or, even trickier, say that any class other than a few select ones per region are considered uneven immediately (they impose an XP penalty). I prefer the earlier method, to be honest...

    Think of it this way: an Anuirean noble that left his people and surrendered because of being outnumbered will have the understanding of his people; if he did it because of being too young and was afraid he would kill most of them, they will have grudges, but may well understand in their anger; if he surrendered on more roguish grounds (meaning he surrendered after a deal or because he is militarily incapable), his people would hate him!

    The idea is to apply a penalty similar to the Sidhelien's penalty for infamy. How do you see that? And nobles to get an average BAB, of course...


    For example:
    Noble Birth: Nobles are the elite of each society and are thus expected to set the highest paradeigm for all others. Each region has a few classes which are considered appropriate for a noble to consider as secondary endeavours; if a noble ever onvolves himself with any other class, he takes a cumulative -2 penalty on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive checks [MY NOTE: aren't this the most appropriately penalised skills?] for each such class he has undertaken with people of his region who do not have them.
    Consider this: if a Brecht noble is expected to multiclass in the fighter and rogue classes (for example), and he takes levels in the ranger class, he takes a -2 penalty with any non-ranger Brecht character. If he also undertook the wizard class, he would take a -4 penalty with non-ranger non-wizard Brecht, and a -2 with ranger or wizard Brecht; he would have no penalty with a ranger/wizard Brecht.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    This leads to the simple conclusion that most nobles have an at least average BAB progression. However, there is this other issue...

    Wouldn't multiclassing actually present a better way to handle BAB and its role? For example, a typical Mhorien noble receives military training (especially the princes), but as the novel "The Falcon and the Wolf" indicates, there are high-standing nobles with little capacity even in sword-swinging! This suggests an average BAB, since even a couple of levels in a fighting-oriented class really make a difference.
    The problem is that a medium BAB guarantees a weaker fighting capability when multiclassing, thanks especially to having a +0 attack at 1st level. So with a medium BAB, a fighter/noble will always be a weaker combatant as a result. Meanwhile, a Noble/Cleric or Noble/Rogue is also a weaker combatant than a straight Cleric or Rogue, and a Noble/Wizard will be pathetically poor.

    By contrast, a high BAB Noble avoids these problems; a Noble/Fighter will be an excellent warrior; however, multiclassing as a Fighter is still stronger than a straight Noble thanks to Specialization and bonus feats, while multiclassing as a Rogue, Cleric, or Wizard will still lower their total BAB and thus maintain the thematic element that these are less combat-worthy than a pure Noble.

    As for the high-standing nobles of Mhoried in the above example, wouldn't these perhaps be better represented by the Aristocrat than the Noble? This seems to me a better example of the not-so-dedicated nobility, who still have the social skills but not the commitment of the heroic noble.

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 9 2004, 09:16 AM

    So exactly what does distinguuish or exemplify the Brecht nobility? What, for instance, makes a noble class more fitting than the Rogue? While there is a focus on commerce, are the landed nobility often guilders, or are they generally seperate? And if seperate, what IS their role in society? I would think defending the land is pretty important to landed nobility in any culture. It's not as if the Brecht have entirely peaceful borders, what with the Gorgon and many humanoids filling the mountains and pirates a recurring problem in the Great Bay.

    The idea of landed nobility being warriors is based on the role of feudal lords in medieval society - defense of the realm was their primary role, hence the reason they always led the fighting.
    Not necessary defense of the land but of the holdings. Most nobles would not be landed regents but rather non-landed ones (i.e., those who come from a family that runs holdings only). This makes the biggest distinction. In Brechtur, they have ceded the government to those of Anuirean descent while the actual power (i.e., the economic control) is held by Brechts.

    The problem with the historical comparison is the landed part. Since most regents (in BR) are not landed most nobles would likewise be the same.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Not necessary defense of the land but of the holdings. Most nobles would not be landed regents but rather non-landed ones (i.e., those who come from a family that runs holdings only). This makes the biggest distinction. In Brechtur, they have ceded the government to those of Anuirean descent while the actual power (i.e., the economic control) is held by Brechts.

    The problem with the historical comparison is the landed part. Since most regents (in BR) are not landed most nobles would likewise be the same.
    Hmmm...I had always believed a Noble class would represent landed nobility - not only regents, however, as there aren't all that many regents in general. Also, I thought it was pretty clear that a Noble class would also represent unblooded aristocracy who still play a leadership role. However, the nobility in most societies would be landowners - however BR differs from medieval Europe, this fact would need to remain constant because it is an agrarian society, where land is the backbone of any economy because land supplies food. While trade, mining, sea husbandry, and craftsmanship are important economic factors, they cannot exist without agriculture to support them. This is such a fundamental backbone of a medieval economy I don't see how it can be ignored. Even the Brecht would use whatever arable land they could to raise food, and that requires landlords in a feudal system, who are traditionally the nobility.

    As for regents (and their families) of other holdings, why should a Noble class be better suited than Rogues or Clerics or Wizards? Would temple or source regents necesarily be hereditary, the basic requirement for a Noble class?

    Finally, the Brecht leaving government to the Anuirean-descended nobility while the guilds hold power: to me this symbolizes that those Anuireans would be better suited as Aristocrat and Noble-class characters, while the Brechts would tend to be more practical-minded Rogues running the guilds.

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