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Thread: Guns (long)
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08-26-1998, 08:38 AM #1Tim NuttingGuest
Guns (long)
"Yeah, but then you just cast a Chain Lightning and all the gunpowder explodes."
*ahem* - to be accurate, the statement was intended for a 5th level wizard to cast a lightning bolt per PHB with the
originating point being at one end of a line of bombards and the angle casting the bolt through the line. Read the spell.
While that *might* certainly be possible, that was not the gist of my argument, nor was the intent there to make this world
like the Forgotten Realms. For Haelyn's sake the last thing I wanted was that insanely illogical crap, "smoke powder".
Anyone care to explain why the sulfer compound that makes up gunpowder doesn't work in that little crystaline sphere
floating in the pink goop called the Forgotten Realms?
Take a realistic look at it.
Faced with an obvious means for eliminating 200+ soldiers from your enemy's battle lines, equipped with weapons such as a
line of muskets, or perhaps even bombards, what would you do? How about fry every living sucker over on that end and make
the obviously volatile material they are using ignite in an uncontrolled fashion. Or, in less magical terms, go for a
magazine critical hit. *boom*
Is that not the most brutally efficient way to cripple your enemy? Is there some reason why a wizard should refrain from
such activity? I say no. This is war, and anyone who can't make the muster doesn't get the chance to sit on the rusty
couch.
Yes, technology does advance, but to assume that it would advance in an identical fashion to the advance here on Earth is, I
apologize, not looking at the whole picture. Unless someone can undoubtably prove it to me with hard science, there never
was any ability to lob balls of fire across the battle field, nor could any single soldier in any engagement on the planet
from the 12th century to the 20th century call down magical bolts of electrical energy. Magic WILL affect technology, and a
volatile compound like gunpowder has that one significant weakness that can, and WILL be exploited by any mage with an INT
above 8.
I am not sure about chain lightning as compared to a musket, but to look at it in the atypical combat environment, chain
lighting has a shorter range (an effect not accounted for by battle spells), and second, I don't think (not sure) that it is
a battle spell. However, should a mage cast a CL on a group of musketeers, each of them would have to make a saving throw
versus magic or suffer the full damage. If they make the save, they are fine and have been mostly missed. Otherwise, each
victim failing the save must also have all equipment on them pass an Item Saving Throw (read about them in the DMG), and if
each item fails, then the character's goods are gone. I have never tried to expose black powder to a running electrical
current, I have not been that stupid, but I believe that a high amperage electrical current, grounded through a person,
should be about enough to discharge unprotected black powder.
Now the invention of rubber (technological advancement) effectively nullfies this little, highly exploitable weakness,
insofar as the powder is susceptible to discharge via electrical current. However, it does very little to protect it from
the heat of a fireball (certainly a battle spell). The "exploding gunpowder" spell I mentioned was intended to show an
intelligent wizard who would determine that his normal compliment of spells were unable to allways achieve the desired
effect, so he or she spends the time and money to advance his or her trade, magic, up a notch and make it better than this
new technology, or lose the edge in favor of the peasant.
As another weakness of muzzle loading weapons is their loading times, I would suggest that any unit so equipped NOT be
allowed to make the standard two missile attacks in a round when they are stationary, and in fact, that a musket equipped
unit must be stationary to be able to fire, and may not fire on the move, as may archers. However, this is easily countered
by the need for crossbowment to crank back those 1200 lb. warbows of theirs.... (the actual weight of a late medieval heavy
cross-bow)
Later guys and gals!
Tim Nutting
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08-26-1998, 10:29 AM #2James RayGuest
Guns (long)
LOL - I'll take a poke at some of your arguments
- ----------
> From: Tim Nutting
> "Yeah, but then you just cast a Chain Lightning and all the gunpowder
explodes."
>
> *ahem* - to be accurate, the statement was intended for a 5th level
wizard to cast a lightning bolt per PHB with the
> originating point being at one end of a line of bombards and the angle
casting the bolt through the line. Read the spell.
>
> While that *might* certainly be possible, that was not the gist of my
argument, nor was the intent there to make this world
> like the Forgotten Realms. For Haelyn's sake the last thing I wanted was
that insanely illogical crap, "smoke powder".
> Anyone care to explain why the sulfer compound that makes up gunpowder
doesn't work in that little crystaline sphere
> floating in the pink goop called the Forgotten Realms?
Probly cause if it DID, everybody and there brother would be mixing
gunpowder and blowing up bad guys with crude hand grenades and such LOL.
By requiring a "magical substance", I think a DM gets some measure of
control over its use.
> Faced with an obvious means for eliminating 200+ soldiers from your
enemy's battle lines, equipped with weapons such as a
> line of muskets, or perhaps even bombards, what would you do? How about
fry every living sucker over on that end and make
> the obviously volatile material they are using ignite in an uncontrolled
fashion. Or, in less magical terms, go for a
> magazine critical hit. *boom*
They DO have "critical strikes" in Spells & Magic", one of those Players
Options books...
>weakness that can, and WILL be exploited by any mage with >an INT above
8.>
LOL - I GOT that one :)
> I am not sure about chain lightning as compared to a musket, but to look
at it in the atypical combat environment, chain
> lighting has a shorter range (an effect not accounted for by battle
spells), and second, I don't think (not sure) that it is
> a battle spell.
IMAGINE that Battle Spell conversion, though... I mean, Magic Missile
becomes "Rain of Magic Missiles", etc. "Electrical Hurricane", maybe? LOL
>
>
> As another weakness of muzzle loading weapons is their loading times, I
would suggest that any unit so equipped NOT be
> allowed to make the standard two missile attacks in a round when they are
stationary, and in fact, that a musket equipped
> unit must be stationary to be able to fire, and may not fire on the move,
as may archers.
If you use the stats for guns (et al) in Combat & Tactics, the fastest they
can be fired is once every 15 rounds (for a light cannon). The heavy
cannon can onnly be fired once every 30 rounds... A wizard wouldnt need
Chain Lightning, just a couple of Fireballs, as he would probly have PLENTY
of time.... The fastest listing for hand held firearms is 1/2 rounds, and
quite a few have rates of 1/3. They also misfire frequently, and present a
host of other problems. I still have my hands full keeping tracking of
which units got disbanded this month so the Regent could bribe somebody,
let ALONE keep track of how many charges of gunpowder they have. If you
like guns and stuff, though, go ahead and use 'em, by all means.
Incidentally...would they do damage to creatures that can only be affected
by magical weapons? I dont think it would be possible to enchant the
actual projectile (cause items to be enchanted have to specially made, from
the finest materials, etc), but certainly the firearm itself could be
enchanted to improve the "to hit" probability, but that still doesnt answer
my question, so, I will sign this one off, now :)
James
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08-26-1998, 01:13 PM #3TheMotive@aol.coGuest
Guns (long)
In a message dated 8/26/98 4:56:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, zero@wiredweb.com
writes:
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08-26-1998, 03:58 PM #4Pieter A de JongGuest
Guns (long)
At 09:13 AM 8/26/98 -0400, TheMotive wrote:
>In a message dated 8/26/98 4:56:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, zero@wiredweb.com
>writes:
>
>(of which I mentioned earlier), wizards really did not like technology--it
>made them less "cool". The whole basic philosphy was: "Hey, look, mage-boy. It
>takes years and years of study to cast lightning bolt--it only takes us a few
>months to build a cannon and train people to use it. Why should you have all
>the cool powers? Why shouldn't peasants be able to defend themselves *just* as
>well as you?"
>
>With that a lot of wizards disagreed, and a lot died. Sure, magic can effect
>technology--but peopl wouldn't stop running with a "good thing" just because
>one wizard stopped them before.
>
>Say, for example, a unit of cannons had taken over a dozen provinces and laid
>siege to an entire castle. Then, a court wizard comes out and destroys with it
>a lightning bolt. Do you think the generals of the army that possessed the
>cannons would say "Ooh, well, that didn't work at all. Better go back to
>infantry units and cavalry."? I think they would simply be more careful next
>time, and probably try to improve the design.
>
>Have you ever considered that maybe people would advance *FASTER* in an
>attempt to outdo the snooty, self-righteous mages?
>
Considering the investment they must have put in to that unit of cannon,
they would likely figure that hiring their own mage is more cost effective.
Humans have a tendency to take the easiest short term path, and if magic
works, technology would see a *lot* less investment. And the only way
technology advances is on the back of ridiculous amounts thought and
experimentation.
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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08-26-1998, 04:23 PM #5TheMotive@aol.coGuest
Guns (long)
In a message dated 8/26/98 12:11:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pad300@mail.usask.ca writes:
>
And magic doesn't?
- - The Motive
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08-26-1998, 07:48 PM #6Pieter A de JongGuest
Guns (long)
At 12:23 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/26/98 12:11:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>pad300@mail.usask.ca writes:
>
> technology advances is on the back of ridiculous amounts thought and
> experimentation. >>
>
>And magic doesn't?
>
Try comparing assorted rules for the development of new spells compared to
the development times for changes in technology. In most rules I have seen,
even accounting for unsuccesful tries, developing a customized spell takes
one individual much less than a year. Technological advances take 1000's of
man-years to complete from concept to applyable device. Comparitively, it is
much easier to do something with magic.
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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08-28-1998, 05:05 AM #7Tim NuttingGuest
Guns (long)
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08-28-1998, 06:52 AM #8Gary V. FossGuest
Guns (long)
Tim Nutting wrote:
>
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08-29-1998, 04:12 AM #9Jim CooperGuest
Guns (long)
Tim Nutting wrote:
> Yes, I have considered that others would try to outdo the mage with tech, but then you intrude on other social factors as well. Who would seek to spite the mage? Priests have their own power and don't necessarily need to advance the technology. However, the thieves and the fighters could certainly see the benefit, for the most part, but then who are the noble lords in Anuire? The fighters. What do they gain from allowing thier populace to be more independant? A republic. Not good.> Brechtur is allready mostly republican states ruled by merchant princes, increased profits mean increased power. Slowly but
surely the advance of technology would fall to them above all others.
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08-29-1998, 04:32 AM #10Jim CooperGuest
Guns (long)
Someone who shall remain anonymous wrote:
>This is the crux of the matter to me. I don't think people would investigate technology the way they did in Earth history.
> Why? Because magic exists. The earth "wizards" who did the research into technological advancement are actual wizards in AD&D.
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