Chap 6 discussion for revision

[lord_arioch]

Square grid with 8 points. Yes, I didn't take into account the diagonal movement. I don't think the original rules allowed diagonal movement did they?
Anyways it sounds like squares would work.

Jew, I had tried some time ago to post my version of ship stats but the chart was in disorder. Aaeg rules sound interesting, is there a link to their website?

[Don E]

Originally posted by lord_arioch@Aug 26 2004, 10:34 AM
Square grid with 8 points. Yes, I didn't take into account the diagonal movement. I don't think the original rules allowed diagonal movement did they?

No, but I hope nobody here wants to continue using the system in the original rules. It wasn't even a square gird, just a 'battle-mat' with rectangualr boxes.

Another important issue is that the sea combat rules in BR should refelct the higher importance of ramming and boarding actions compared to ship rules where guns or magical siege weapons play a big role.

[RaspK_FOG]

What I meant by "original system" is what AeEG says... I will try to write up a similar set of mechanics, since copying them would be plagiarism on my part.

[lord_arioch]

Originally posted by Don E@Aug 26 2004, 12:45 PM

Another important issue is that the sea combat rules in BR should refelct the higher importance of ramming and boarding actions compared to ship rules where guns or magical siege weapons play a big role.

Yes I agree that the rules should reflect the main reliance on boarding actions. Ramming which is also important should only be available to the serpent galley's. All other ships should rely on boarding actions.

[Don E]

Originally posted by lord_arioch@Aug 27 2004, 11:29 AM
Yes I agree that the rules should reflect the main reliance on boarding actions. Ramming which is also important should only be available to the serpent galley's. All other ships should rely on boarding actions.

I disagree completly with you here. Ramming is a integral part of pre-gun sea combat and would be used extensively by all nations. The abilitity to ram another ship is after all one of the great advantages of an oar powered ship, and would not be left unused by any competent general. I would say it is general practice in Cerilia for all galleys and similar ships to be fitted with a ram to facilitate such actions.

Ok, so the serpent is the only one who got galleys in the original writeup, bot how reasonable is that. Pretending naval warfare in Anuire is predominantly performed by sailing ships seems like a too artifical constraint for it to be carried on into the a reviosion. Just like the army part of te rules have undergone a thorough shakeup I think the naval rules should too.

[Osprey]

Without cannons, I would think ballista would make excellent naval weapons - catapults perhaps to a lesser extent, though they'd be terribly inaccurate against moving targets fired from a moving ship. They would, however, be very effective as a means of naval bombardment against shore-based structures (like coastal forts and towns). Mangonels, the effective equivalent of a light catapult, would have reasonable accuracy against other ships, and their ability to throw flaming pitch and scatter-shot (clusters of fist-sized rocks) would make them invaluable, even if they hit only occasionally. In other words, low accuracy but high damage.

It's difficult to use purely historical precedents for naval combat in BR, as most of the seafaring nations have Renaissance levels of tech without gunpowder. Historically, cannons were being used on ships for some time before the Renaissance.

So instead I would prefer to see some creative use of siege weapons on board ships, even if medieval Europeans didn't utilize them very much. Ramming definitely relies on oars, so it would have to be determined if all warships are oared or not. I think the Anuirean Galleon is one ship that is very odd - it's modeled off an ocean-going, sailing, cannon-armed ship of the Renaissance era in a world where cannons don't exist. Why, exactly, would such a ship have ever been developed in Cerilia? If catapults and ballista are used as shipboard artillery, then it might work for a galleon to be purely a sailing ship that relies on ranged artillery and boarding but not ramming. A ramming warship would require a specialized hull design so that it could be rowed at high speed and still absorb the shock of impact. I could imagine Drakkars being built to such an end, as well as Khinasi galleys and zebecs, while Brechts and Anuireans might rely more on sailing and thus naval artillery plus boarding for close action.

[lord_arioch]

Yes it is odd how the only realm that has galleys are the Serpent. I agree that ram-armed galleys should be more common amongst the other realms. The point I was trying to make is that in the BRCS revision galleons and longships had rams. Galleons, being a sail only ship cannot have a ram.

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Osprey wrote:



> Without cannons, I would think ballista would make excellent naval

> weapons - catapults perhaps to a lesser extent, though they`d be

> terribly inaccurate against moving targets fired from a moving ship.



The real trouble is that the physics of the catapult`s firing mechanism

induces stresses which contemporary shipbuilding techniques couldn`t

really handle. Most of the BR ships would probably shake themselves apart

if you fired all but the tiniest of catapults from them, and even those

which survived could easily capsize themselves! Ballistae are about the

best you can hope for, and even then the ship itself is so unsteady a

platform that effective missile fire is pretty much limited to one volley

before ramming and/or boarding.



> They would, however, be very effective as a means of naval bombardment

> against shore-based structures (like coastal forts and towns).



Ah, but for the construction reasons mentioned, unlike modern battleships,

naval catapult ranges and projectile sizes would be woefully small

compared to what the land forces could employ. Trying to bombard a

fortress from the sea is not a good plan with medieval tech -- you need to

land down the coast a bit, then use local timber to build a bigger

trebuchet than the defenders have on hand. To actually crack stone castle

walls in a useful fashion, the siege engines would have to be far too

large even to load onto a ship in one piece, much less fire from it safely.



> Mangonels, the effective equivalent of a light catapult, would have

> reasonable accuracy against other ships, and their ability to throw

> flaming pitch and scatter-shot (clusters of fist-sized rocks) would

> make them invaluable, even if they hit only occasionally.



Yes, flaming pitch is a much better choice for ship-to-ship than solid

stone shot, because you get much greater destructive power per weight, but

you need to be very careful not to drop it. =)



> Historically, cannons were being used on ships for some time before

> the Renaissance. So instead I would prefer to see some creative use

> of siege weapons on board ships, even if medieval Europeans didn`t

> utilize them very much.



Physics is a large part of the reason. Cannon-armed ships used lots of

relatively small weapons, arranged as near the waterline as possible and

mounted on wheeled carts to help absorb the recoil. Even the larger

warships of Nelson`s time probably couldn`t have mounted a catapult which

would have been an effective long-range weapon against another of their

class, as firing it would have flipped them clean over. For exactly that

reason, Cerilian ship armament should consist of a fair number of small

ballistas, not catapults. The ballistas should fire small solid shot

rather than huge arrows -- the point is that they fire straight ahead by a

crossbow-like mechanism, rather than by swinging things overhand on a long

lever arm. It`s that arm swinging that would capsize the firer, and that

arm crashing to a stop as the projectile is released which would shake the

firing ship to pieces.



> I think the Anuirean Galleon is one ship that is very odd - it`s

> modeled off an ocean-going, sailing, cannon-armed ship of the

> Renaissance era in a world where cannons don`t exist. Why, exactly,

> would such a ship have ever been developed in Cerilia?



They key word is ocean-going. Ships designed for ramming (low, long,

oared) are notoriously unseaworthy (Vikings aside). The Anuireans should

use both, actually, as navies did in the 1200ish-1500ish era: high, round

sailing ships for travel out of sight of land, and low, long oared (at

least optionally) for coastal travel, trade and combat. There is little

call for battle upon the high seas -- it`s pretty much impossible to find

the enemy out there, anyway.



> If catapults and ballista are used as shipboard artillery, then it

> might work for a galleon to be purely a sailing ship that relies on

> ranged artillery and boarding but not ramming.



One great advantage the galleon has over a drakkar is that it has a much

higher deck; this means it has an easier time boarding and repelling

boarders, and also that it is in a much better position for short-range

missile fire. When the Anuirean galleon goes to war, it should be packed

to the gills with (cross)bowmen, who could riddle rowers at little risk.





Ryan Caveney

[Athos69]

Originally posted by ryancaveney@Aug 27 2004, 02:20 PM
The real trouble is that the physics of the catapult`s firing mechanism induces stresses which contemporary shipbuilding techniques couldn`t really handle. Most of the BR ships would probably shake themselves apart if you fired all but the tiniest of catapults from them, and even those which survived could easily capsize themselves! Ballistae are about the best you can hope for, and even then the ship itself is so unsteady a platform that effective missile fire is pretty much limited to one volley before ramming and/or boarding.

What of the use of trebuchets? they create minimal stress, and could be used to launch pots of pitch or oil, to then be followed up by a volley of flaming arrows.

Further, you forget that a massed volley of arrows can be quite effective too...

[RaspK_FOG]

A common means of wrecking an enemy ship was to use the ever-faithful (...) arbalest and small balistae, since both were capable of launching fiery missiles as well as irons and chains that can rip sails apart.