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  1. #1
    James Ray
    Guest

    Contesting sources (kinda long)

    My posting is double-spaced from the original question...

    > From: Gary V. Foss
    > I have a question that I'd like to pose to everyone to get your opinions
    on it:
    >
    > >From what I can tell there is no problem whatever with anyone contesting
    a source holding. The landed regent can do it, a regent with a law, guild
    or temple holding can as well, just like the source holder can contest any
    other holding in a province. Fair's fair. Even Steven.> >
    > But how? >

    How - well, thats a difficult question to answer, at least in game terms.
    Another Regent can simply be assumed to have asserted HIS connection to the
    land to a greater extent than the Mage has, at least for the duration of
    that particular Action Round.

    > I mean, source holdings are kind of strange, esoteric magical things,
    right? How would you give a "realistic" explanation of contesting a source
    holding? Contesting a guild or a temple or a law holding makes sense.
    You could boot out the workers, priests or sheriffs, hammer the doors of
    their buildings closed and confiscate all their goodies.>

    This is what happens when military units are used to occupy a Province, and
    reduce other Holdings there to (0). Occupations of that sort may do one of
    several things: a) reduce any/all Law Holdings to (0) b) reduce
    any/all Temple Holdings to (0) c) reduce any/all Guild Holdings to (0)
    d) reduce any/all Sources by 1. "Contesting" means one Regent or other has
    convinced the populace to ignore laws and edicts, disregard the preachings
    of a particular Priest, or spend their GPs in another Guild.

    > But how does one contest a mage's mystical link with a circle of
    standing stones or sylvan meadow?>

    By asserting the the strength of their OWN mystical link to the land, and
    its people.

    > You could say that the contesting regent sends a bunch of guys to knock
    down the standing stones or construct a strip mall in the center of the
    meadow, right? But isn't that more like despoiling the source rather than
    contesting it?>

    Yes - it wouild require a military occupation to accomplish that, and that
    would be the only action the units inolved could take that Action Round.

    > I mean, contesting a source leaves the source itself intact. Another
    mage can come along to the same source and rule it up again, right?>

    Contesting it the FIRST time does, yes. It remains contested until one of
    a few possible Actions are taken to resolve the Contest. If a Contested
    holding (even a Source) is successfully contested a SECOND time (before the
    CONTEST is resolved favorably to the controlling regent), the owner loses
    the Holding, and its slots become uncontrolled. The particular Source in
    question becomes inert, that is, a level (0), and any Ley lines originating
    from it disappear. Another Mage can Rule his/her OWN Source up, but cannot
    Contest for ownership of the entire Source.

    Stone tipping and strip mall construction would
    > seem to be the kinds of things that would reduce the source level of a
    province from 0/7 to 0/6 doesn't it?>

    Hmmm - 0/7 and 0/6 are methods of expressing a Province's Rating. That
    second number refers to the magical potential of the Province. Stone
    tipping and construction require OTHER Actions, they are not
    automatic. The only way to reduce the Magical Potential of a Province, is
    to Rule it up a Level of Province Rating, from 0/7 to 1/6. Any or all
    Source holders could oppose this attempt, however.

    > What do you guys think?>

    I think you should lQQk this over, and tell me if I've helped you come to a
    solution, or ask some more questions along these lines. The rules in the
    BR Rulebook are a little TOO straightforward...they WERE, after all,
    codified by people who had spent aLONG time playtesting them, and were
    written down in as simplified terms as they could manage, which is
    unfortunate, because examples would have been a lot better for our purposes
    :) Anybody else get to see the notes from the playtest sessions?

    > Gary

  2. #2
    Jan Arnoldus
    Guest

    Contesting sources (kinda long)

    At 07:00 15-08-98 -0500, you wrote:

    >> Stone tipping and strip mall construction would
    >> seem to be the kinds of things that would reduce the source level of a
    >> province from 0/7 to 0/6 doesn't it?>
    >
    >Hmmm - 0/7 and 0/6 are methods of expressing a Province's Rating. That
    >second number refers to the magical potential of the Province. Stone
    >tipping and construction require OTHER Actions, they are not
    >automatic. The only way to reduce the Magical Potential of a Province, is
    >to Rule it up a Level of Province Rating, from 0/7 to 1/6. Any or all
    >Source holders could oppose this attempt, however.
    >
    As you say it is important to differentiate between the province's magic
    rating as expressed in */MR and the level of the source.
    By stone tipping and strip mall construction at the physical site of the
    source manifestation the source level could be negatively influenced. This
    doesn't mean that the province rating would be effected.
    You could compare it to a set of sprinklers you use to water a footbal field.
    A wizard who holds a source has located a sprinkler and turned it on by
    ruling his source he discovers how he can turn the knob a little further so
    that more water (mebhaighl) can flow through the sprinkler (source).
    When some one tries to contest the sprinkler(source) he tries to disrupt the
    waterflow through the pipes. This means that less water will flow to the
    sprinkler used by the wizard.
    It doesn't mean that there is no water anymore, when somebody locates
    another potential source site he can start a source there and still rule it
    up to the full potential of the province.

    It is only when somebody destroys the entire network of waterlines (or major
    parts of it) that the source potential of the province goes down this
    happens most often as a result of increased population but it can also
    happen as a result of other actions.
    For example the Basilisk has such toxic emanations that the entire
    countryside has been polluted giving him a 1/0, a 1/0 and a 0/0 province.

    Jan Arnoldus

  3. #3
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Contesting sources (kinda long)

    Jan Arnoldus wrote:

    > At 07:00 15-08-98 -0500, you wrote:
    >
    > >> Stone tipping and strip mall construction would
    > >> seem to be the kinds of things that would reduce the source level of a
    > >> province from 0/7 to 0/6 doesn't it?>
    > >
    > >Hmmm - 0/7 and 0/6 are methods of expressing a Province's Rating. That
    > >second number refers to the magical potential of the Province. Stone
    > >tipping and construction require OTHER Actions, they are not
    > >automatic. The only way to reduce the Magical Potential of a Province, is
    > >to Rule it up a Level of Province Rating, from 0/7 to 1/6. Any or all
    > >Source holders could oppose this attempt, however.
    > >
    > As you say it is important to differentiate between the province's magic
    > rating as expressed in */MR and the level of the source.
    > By stone tipping and strip mall construction at the physical site of the
    > source manifestation the source level could be negatively influenced. This
    > doesn't mean that the province rating would be effected.

    > You could compare it to a set of sprinklers you use to water a footbal field.
    > A wizard who holds a source has located a sprinkler and turned it on by
    > ruling his source he discovers how he can turn the knob a little further so
    > that more water (mebhaighl) can flow through the sprinkler (source).
    > When some one tries to contest the sprinkler(source) he tries to disrupt the
    > waterflow through the pipes. This means that less water will flow to the
    > sprinkler used by the wizard.
    > It doesn't mean that there is no water anymore, when somebody locates
    > another potential source site he can start a source there and still rule it
    > up to the full potential of the province.
    >
    > It is only when somebody destroys the entire network of waterlines (or major
    > parts of it) that the source potential of the province goes down this
    > happens most often as a result of increased population but it can also
    > happen as a result of other actions.
    > For example the Basilisk has such toxic emanations that the entire
    > countryside has been polluted giving him a 1/0, a 1/0 and a 0/0 province.

    I think my original example of strip mall construction is not quite as apt as the
    stone-tipping part of the analogy.... Strip mall construction sounds more like
    building up the province, for which there are already established rules.... I
    meant something more along the lines of poisoning sources which, as you point
    out, would be handled more like the way a Death Plague spell depopulates an area
    without affecting the source. Better analogies would probably be cutting down
    the ancient oak, damming the mighty river or sealing the crystal cave that
    provides the mage with his source. Sorry about the lousy strip-mall example. I
    think I just really wanted a frozen yogurt or something when I wrote it....

    What I was after, however, was a role-playing interpretation of the process of
    contesting a source holding, which is why stone-tipping seems more apt. If I
    want my players to role-play out the action, I need them to tell me what they are
    doing so I can gauge it's effectiveness and how a mage might respond.

    James presented a good "realistic" method or, at least, the one that makes the
    most sense given the context of sources, regency, bloodlines, etc. I can't come
    up wiith a better explanation than a battle of wills between regents, as the
    physical aspects of sources are rather vague, unlike guilds, law and temple
    holdings.

    I suppose on a certain level this kind of psychic battle must occur for any
    action involving regency. Otherwise, how are the regents applying various
    amounts of regency points to an action or attuning their bloodline to new
    provinces, etc.? The actual process of concentration need not be anything as
    theatrical as a psychic duel of the kind psionics might have, but on some level
    there has to be a mental effort to direct the regency points involved.

    This still doesn't leave me with much of a way to tell players to act out their
    character's actions.... I like to make them role-play all their actions, so
    that's what I'm after here.

    Gary

  4. #4
    James Ray
    Guest

    Contesting sources (kinda long)

    - ----------
    > From: Gary V. Foss
    > What I was after, however, was a role-playing interpretation of the
    process of contesting a source holding, which is why stone-tipping seems
    more apt. If I want my players to role-play out the action, I need them to
    tell me what they are doing so I can gauge it's effectiveness and how a
    mage might respond.>

    Ahhh, I see :) "Sources" are defined by "manifestations", if you look
    closely at Book of Magecraft. Sources arent actual material things that
    the Mage builds to trap the mebhaighl, they are places where mebhaighl is
    already concentrating. When a Mage Rules a Source (1) to a Source (2), he
    is actually using his own mystical powers to make HIS Source attract more
    of a Province's meibhaighl. He might spend a whole month out near his
    manifestation, aerating the soil near the old oak's roots, or using his
    spells to attract more bees to the flowers in the meadows (pollenation, ya
    know :), or any manner of other things that might enhance the area.


    > I can't come up wiith a better explanation than a battle of wills between
    regents, as the physical aspects of sources are rather vague, unlike
    guilds, law and temple holdings.>

    Hmm - I see your point. While the Guild-holder can have a sale or
    something, and the Priest can have a revival or whatever, it IS difficult
    to explain what the Mage is doing for the month he spends trying to Contest
    the rival's Source. A Source's actual manifestation, however, is immune to
    most physical damage - even military units can only lower the level of a
    Source by a factor of (1) per Action Round. Some ideas:

    1) "Conjuring" something that obstructs the flow of mebhaighl to the
    rival's Source. Not a SERIOUS obstruction, remember that all it takes is a
    successful Rule Action to "dispel" the obstruction.

    2) Altering the weather slightly, so maybe the flowers in his meadow dont
    blossom, the brooks and streams get all muddy, etc

    3) Anything that might affect the wildlife in the area could have a
    detrimental effect on the Source's ability to collect mebhaighl. Not
    enough bunnies, too many deer, or something to that effect.

    Sources ARE places of pristine (or nearly so) beauty, so anything that
    might upset the "natural balance" would probably be enough, and "all" the
    rival Mage has to do is fix it, somehow

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