Sanctioning vote for classes part of Chap 1

[irdeggman]

With the one exception of the dwarven paladin there doesn't seem to be any more coments on the class section so it is time to vote for sanctioning of the class section of Chap 1. Magician class is exempt from this vote since it is still being discussed.

If you vote no please give comments so we (I) can see what may need to be changed depending on the vote totals.

Again be careful not to use the null vote to see the totals since you won't be able to vote if you do.

[irdeggman]

Here is the pdf version.

Same one as the one used for races.

[irdeggman]

Here is the Word version.

[irdeggman]

I guess people decide not to read or take any action ohter than making a click for a no vote. Real useful this way.

If you vote no please give comments so we (I) can see what may need to be changed depending on the vote totals.

[tcharazazel]

I voted no because I still don't like the way the noble class is done. I have 3 major objections.

1st: The cordinate ability is still there, and this ability is very powerful when it can be used, having a +10 to a skill check just from the noble cordnating 5 or less people at higher levels, is allowing them to reach epic levels of skill ability. This really should be either taken out or at least powered down to +1.

2nd: The inclusion of the wealth ability into the resources ability is just a bit rediculous. All the objections to the noble having wealth were arguments for how over powering it was for low level characters. Now using the new system low level characters get more gp than before, a 2nd level noble with Cha 14 will get 100 x 2 + 100 = 300gp vs the 150 gp per domain turn from the old system, and thats only by using the ability once. If he were to use it the maximum number of times that he could 3 in that case he would then be getting 900 gp per domain turn, thats a 600% incrrease!

Now once the noble reaches higher level 9th+ the character already has aquired wealth from either adventuring, wise rulershipe, guild enterprises ect. And this is when the new system would start to taper off with the amount of gold the noble recieves at to some extent. A 9th level noble now with a Cha of 16 will get 100 x 3 + 100 x 8 = 1100 gp instead of 2000 gp from the old system, from 1 use of the ability. However, again if he were to use it the max number of times. 5 now, that he could get 5500 gp. At even higher levels, when the noble is likely to have acquired items that will raise his Cha even more however we'll just pretend that he was unable to do so. At 15th level with a Cha of 18 he will get 100 x 4 + 100 x 14 = 1800gp instead of 8000 gp from one use of the abiltity. Again, when he uses it to its full extent he can then acquire, 7 times, he would get 12600 gp.

Thus it is very obvious that the problem that people had with the wealth ability has not been addressed, and instead it has been just made more difficult to calculate.

3rd: What reason was there for lowering the BAB of the noble? If it was so he could get a bonus feat every 5 levels that's one sucky trade off. If we wanted to actualy put some weight behind the 3 paths offered to the noble the BAB should follow them with the Warrior path getting a high BAB the Guilder getting a medium BAB and the scholar getting a low BAB. Then to balance the 3 types, the guilder should get a higher amount of wealth per domain turn, and the scholar should have a high number of skill points and they shoudl definately get the Spellcraft skill as they give a bonus to those checks for that ability Look of the Noble, also maybe add use magic device as a class skill, sorta like the loremaster. If this doesnt balance them enough then just drop the bonus feats for the warrior path, as he spent his free time training with his weapon instead of learning new feats, like the others.

[Osprey]

I voted no as well. In general I agree with T'Char, I'm not overly fond of the revised noble, I think the Resource/Wealth option is very dense and complex, whereas the original Wealth kept things simple. Coordinate too powerful, as mentioned above.

And dropping the BAB is a major down-powering of the class with few compensators - a bonus feat starting at 5th level? I still prefer something like a bonus feat at 2nd, 6th, 11th, etc., drop all but the first level of Coordinate, and taper down or simply drop Resources. As for what the bonus feat is, when it's every 5 levels, I don't see a need for "paths" when the only distinction is which save is high and getting occasional feats at higher levels. If these paths are supposed to be significant, they should have a noticable effect before 5th level.

I have similar feelings about the Paladin of Neserie class having its BAB dropped to medium. Why would anyone play a paladin instead of a cleric, when it's weaker in most respects? Even basic NPC Warriors have a high BAB. I think any paladin class should also have this, as they are warriors at heart.

Osprey

[Athos69]

Osprey, T'char;

Something that you should be thinking about is just what kind of a monster you wish to create. The Rogue is a skill monster, getting 8 skill points/level and no bonus feats. The Fighter is a Feat monster, getting a large number of feats, but only 2 skill points/level. There is a bonus that we need to achieve. Perhaps the balance could be achieved in the tweaking of feats vs. skill points for each path. The problem with this is that when we monkey with this, we are, in essence, creating 3 classes, not one... I don't claim to know the solution to this, but wanted to give you an idea of how my thought processses were thinking on this one.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jul 31 2004, 01:44 AM
Again be careful not to use the null vote to see the totals since you won't be able to vote if you do.

If you want to see the results without voting or abstain, simply log yourself out. Guests can't vote...

[irdeggman]

Hey, Tchar/Osprey,

I only posted this for a vote because no one had commented on it in about 2 weeks so the the only assumption I could make was that people 'liked' it.

The reason for dropping the BAB for the noble is to make up for the class abilities gained. You pointed out that you thought they were too powerful - well that was why the BAB was lowered. But it seems that in your minds you have already dropped the abilities you didn't like and then looked at the class for balance.

As far as the paladin of Nesire goes. It is a combination of cleric and PHB paladin. The BAB is less than that of a paladin, but the spell selection and progression is greater. It is not as combat oriented (i.e., warrior at heart) as is the other paladin classes, but is still more so than a standard cleric (hence the greater starting weapon proficiencies) {those would cost a cleric a feat for each weapon}. The class gains most of the paladin's abilities hence it is not quite the same as the cleric. It was designed to be somewhere between the two as part of trying to define the role of the class. That water affinity ability (2nd level) can really be powerful and the freedom of movement ability (10th level). Oh yeah there is no reason to give the class a d8 hit die and avg BAB.

[Osprey]

As far as the paladin of Nesire goes. It is a combination of cleric and PHB paladin. The BAB is less than that of a paladin, but the spell selection and progression is greater. It is not as combat oriented (i.e., warrior at heart) as is the other paladin classes, but is still more so than a standard cleric (hence the greater starting weapon proficiencies) {those would cost a cleric a feat for each weapon}. The class gains most of the paladin's abilities hence it is not quite the same as the cleric. It was designed to be somewhere between the two as part of trying to define the role of the class. That water affinity ability (2nd level) can really be powerful and the freedom of movement ability (10th level). Oh yeah there is no reason to give the class a d8 hit die and avg BAB.

I understand the thinking here, I just don't agree with it. When I compare balance, one of the things I do is say: if I had to choose between a cleric and paladin of Neserie, which would I prefer based on power potential? If these 2 characters of equal single class level squared off against one another, who would I put my money on? The cleric, every time. Why? Because the cleric spells create an advantage that the paladin's class abilities can't match, particularly at higher levels. Clerics have now the same BAB, HD, and more powerful magic. They also get access to the Sea Domain if they so choose, only they get more out of it because of greater casting abilities.

Weapon proficiency is a poor tradeoff for BAB - clerics have enough decent weapon options such that the ability to use martial weapons is really only a very small advantage in combat. Armor and weapon proficiency are very much "cheap" feats because they can be gained en masse by multiclassing. Using the above example, I'd rather have a Cleric8/Fighter2 then a Paladin 10.

The reason for dropping the BAB for the noble is to make up for the class abilities gained. You pointed out that you thought they were too powerful - well that was why the BAB was lowered. But it seems that in your minds you have already dropped the abilities you didn't like and then looked at the class for balance.

Actually, I was one of the ones defending the class as not being so far out of balance with the 3.5 ranger class, but fairly comparable. My main suggestions were to trade off the higher levels of Coordinate and drop Resources in exchange for a few bonus feats (2nd, 6th, 11th, etc.). I liked the Wealth feature, and never had a problem with it, tho I do remember participating in brainstorming about ways to combine Wealth and Resources. I also posted a modified Noble class, but this was brushed over. After the latest class revision came out, I did some constructive criticism but was also still looking at the class as a whole. I've mentioned several times that "I still like my version better."

The reason I haven't posted on the subject in the past few weeks is because I figured I would have been repeating earlier posts about it.

I've been playtesting with the first revised 3.5 version of the Noble, and for the most part I really like the class. The changes I've suggested were based on that experience, and the tweaking to grant bonus feats but drop resources and coordinate allowed the class to have all of its class features be utilized in the game, rather than having several that were rarely used and/or extremely unbalancing when utilized (like Coordinate +4/+6/+8).

Here's one idea for Coordinate: make it a one-time class ability that adds the Noble's Charisma modifier as an additional synergy bonus to any group action that the noble leads. Alternately, using the existing bonuses would be fine as one-shot additions to a group action rather than each individual synergy bonus being boosted by the ability (and thus stacking to ludicrous levels).

Something that you should be thinking about is just what kind of a monster you wish to create. The Rogue is a skill monster, getting 8 skill points/level and no bonus feats. The Fighter is a Feat monster, getting a large number of feats, but only 2 skill points/level. There is a bonus that we need to achieve. Perhaps the balance could be achieved in the tweaking of feats vs. skill points for each path. The problem with this is that when we monkey with this, we are, in essence, creating 3 classes, not one... I don't claim to know the solution to this, but wanted to give you an idea of how my thought processses were thinking on this one.

The class seperating into 3 classes is the same problem I ran into when working with the 3 path idea. I think the 3 path idea is interesting, but not really necessary when it only concerns a few bonus feats. I'm OK with the original high Will save, and a bonus feat every 5 levels could be chosen from a single noble-type list of bonus feats, a mix of combat, domain, and skill-oriented feats.