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Thread: ships
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11-30-1997, 12:00 AM #1BearcatGuest
ships
>> Building ships are just like mustering any other troop (muster army) only
>> more expensive than most. The Brecht tower ships take longer and even more
>> money.
>>
>> Ed Stark
>>
>
>Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a ship
>can take months or years.
I don't think so. Gurps Hi-Tech (anyone out there want to tell me
that GURPS isn't realistic?) says on the side bar on page 55 that a 50-100
ton caravel requires 250 hours of labor from a skilled carpenter, 250 from a
skilled blacksmith, and 1,500 hours of unskilled labor. That means that it
would take a carpenter, a blacksmith, and six other guys to make that ship
in 250 hours. Assuming that they work for roughly eight hours each day they
will finish the ship in 31 days and two hours, just under Cerilia's 32 day
month.
Acoording to the Fighter's Handbook a suit of plate mail takes 14
weeks to produce when worked upon by 2 apprentices and half a superviser per
eight hour day (the superviser puts in four hours per day). To bring in the
suit in three and a half weeks (just in time for the muster) we would have
to doublethe number of workers _and_ put in a night shift. This means that
we would require a total of eight apprentices and two supervisers to bring
one suit of armor in time for the soldiers to muster. If we want to create
_200_ suits (1 unit worth) then we require an immense task force of 1,600
apprentices and 400 supervisers to finish the task in one month (This is
obviously one of the reasons that you need at least a level three province
to muster Elite infantry). Not only that, each suit of plate mail must be
custom fitted to the wearer. This means that the soldiers must be present at
least some of the time and that the regent can't "order-out" for plate mail.
Thus, even though it is cheaper to muster a unit of elite infantry
it is a lot more work that building a ship. It also takes about the same
amount of time.
Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204
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11-30-1997, 12:00 AM #2BearcatGuest
ships
>hey, do any of you all reallize the rules can change, go with what your DM
>says
I think that I can safely say that we _are_ a bunch of DMs trying to
figure out what to say. Of course we can change the rules to what we see fit
but it tends to make things more complicated for us, and we have to justify
them to our players as well.
Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204
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11-30-1997, 12:00 AM #3BearcatGuest
ships
>IMC, regents can only muster
>a number of armies up to the level of their province(s) *per year*,
>including ships, and only during the winter months (unless they are
>mercs) - or summer months if I'm feeling nice.
This would devastate the players in my campaign as almost every
battle turns into a bloodbath very quickly. The first and second battles of
Ilien's rebellion are good examples: in the two a total of about 1,400
peasant and 800 knights squared off, with roughly 70 rebels coming out in
the end. Not only were the rebels lucky, the commander of ilien's forces was
completely incompetent (he had, after all, pushed his country into revolt in
just nine months of rule.)
Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204
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11-30-1997, 12:00 AM #4BearcatGuest
ships
>Hmm... I've always had a problem with the way GURPS takes real-world research
>and tries to convert them into fantasy, super-heroic, sci-fi, etc. Putting
>this much "realism" into a fictional story tends to overcomplicate things and
>often reduces great heros to quivering puddles of gore. But, I take your
>point and it is valid to an extent.
Hey, don't get me wrong here, I also think that gurps is a little
overrealistic most of the time. That's why I play birthright instead. I just
think that they are probably more likely to be right about something than
not, that's all.
>I personally take the view that troops mustered from provinces have their OWN
>weapons an armor.
I agree with you for the most part here, but in the case that I am
mentioning I very much doubt that one can ask 200 odd soldiers to provide
their own suits of 700+ gp armor.
>So, when you put out the call to muster certain kinds of warriors to form
>units, the only time and effort involved is in waiting for them to pack their
>stuff, get thier lives in order, show up and sign in for pay.
They also get assigned to officers, platoons, recieve briefings,
training, etc...
>Think of the US in WWII. Yeah, we had the capability to build whole fleets
>(and we had to, to replace what was lost in the beginning of the War), but it
>took a loooong time to replace all that. I decided that this paradigm was
>easier for a modern role-player lock onto.
You have to realize that battle ships are much more complicated than
a caravel (or did caravels have to devote huge amounts of space to
instruction manuals), they are filled with presiscion equiptment, radio and
lots of stuff with really small and delicate parts. the smallest part of a
caravel(besides nails of course) is the doorknob on the captain's chamber.
Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204
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07-28-1998, 04:09 PM #5Ed StarkGuest
ships
At 06:34 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 7/27/98 5:24:43 PM, you wrote:
>
>>Are ships a build action, muster action or something else?
>
>It's up to the individual DM, but I'd rule it a build, since ships are such
>major investments.
>
>-DKE
Building ships are just like mustering any other troop (muster army) only
more expensive than most. The Brecht tower ships take longer and even more
money.
Ed Stark
(aka Ted, T'ed, and Hey, You, We've Got An Emergency Project Here!)
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager
ALTERNITY Team
TSR Website: http://www.tsr.com
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07-28-1998, 04:35 PM #6The OlesensGuest
ships
Ed Stark wrote:
> At 06:34 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
> >
> >In a message dated 7/27/98 5:24:43 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >>Are ships a build action, muster action or something else?
> >
> >It's up to the individual DM, but I'd rule it a build, since ships are such
> >major investments.
> >
> >-DKE
>
> Building ships are just like mustering any other troop (muster army) only
> more expensive than most. The Brecht tower ships take longer and even more
> money.
>
> Ed Stark
>
Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a ship
can take monthes or years.
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07-28-1998, 05:21 PM #7Oyvind GronnesbyGuest
ships
At 07:44 28.07.98 +0900, you wrote:
>Are ships a build action, muster action or something else?
In our campaign we made building of ships a modified build action.
Each Domain Turn you roll 1d4 to see how the progress of the shipbuilding.
If you own the shipyard that the ship is built in you will have to pay as
the progress increase, but if you build your ships in someone elses shipyard
you can, of course, negotiate the terms.
Oyvind Gronnesby
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07-28-1998, 06:05 PM #8Sythryc@aol.coGuest
ships
hey, do any of you all reallize the rules can change, go with what your DM
says
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07-28-1998, 06:46 PM #9The OlesensGuest
ships
Bearcat wrote:
> >hey, do any of you all reallize the rules can change, go with what your DM
> >says
>
> I think that I can safely say that we _are_ a bunch of DMs trying to
> figure out what to say. Of course we can change the rules to what we see fit
> but it tends to make things more complicated for us, and we have to justify
> them to our players as well.
>
>
I am a DM. So there's one. We can't just cange rules wen ever we feel like
it. How about this to a bunch of 20th level figters:
I think I will revesre THAC0 so you need the number or lower to hit.
Effectively requireing the fighters' to roll a -9 or lower to hit an unarmored
goblin on a d20
Okay, a little drasic but the point is: we need a reason. It is also nicer if
all DMs in a setting play by the same rules (makes discussion easier).
Right now my face-to-face group is argueing over the Fatigue rules in the
Player's Option (but that is another post).
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07-28-1998, 07:14 PM #10DKEvermore@aol.coGuest
ships
In a message dated 98-07-28 13:51:32 EDT, you write:
> >Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a
> ship
> >can take months or years.
>
> I don't think so. Gurps Hi-Tech (anyone out there want to tell me
> that GURPS isn't realistic?) says on the side bar on page 55 that a 50-100
> ton caravel requires 250 hours of labor from a skilled carpenter, 250 from
a
> skilled blacksmith, and 1,500 hours of unskilled labor. That means that it
> would take a carpenter, a blacksmith, and six other guys to make that ship
> in 250 hours. Assuming that they work for roughly eight hours each day they
> will finish the ship in 31 days and two hours, just under Cerilia's 32 day
> month.
> Acoording to the Fighter's Handbook a suit of plate mail takes 14
> weeks to produce when worked upon by 2 apprentices and half a superviser
per
> eight hour day (the superviser puts in four hours per day). To bring in the
> suit in three and a half weeks (just in time for the muster) we would have
> to doublethe number of workers _and_ put in a night shift. This means that
> we would require a total of eight apprentices and two supervisers to bring
> one suit of armor in time for the soldiers to muster. If we want to create
> _200_ suits (1 unit worth) then we require an immense task force of 1,600
> apprentices and 400 supervisers to finish the task in one month (This is
> obviously one of the reasons that you need at least a level three province
> to muster Elite infantry). Not only that, each suit of plate mail must be
> custom fitted to the wearer. This means that the soldiers must be present
at
> least some of the time and that the regent can't "order-out" for plate
mail.
Hmm... I've always had a problem with the way GURPS takes real-world research
and tries to convert them into fantasy, super-heroic, sci-fi, etc. Putting
this much "realism" into a fictional story tends to overcomplicate things and
often reduces great heros to quivering puddles of gore. But, I take your
point and it is valid to an extent.
I personally take the view that troops mustered from provinces have their OWN
weapons an armor. If they do not, they get to use the "state equipment" (that
means whatever odd bits and old armor scavenged from past battlefields the
state is willing to distribute to the peasants) and thier farm tools. This is
what a levy is.
So, when you put out the call to muster certain kinds of warriors to form
units, the only time and effort involved is in waiting for them to pack their
stuff, get thier lives in order, show up and sign in for pay.
>
> Thus, even though it is cheaper to muster a unit of elite infantry
> it is a lot more work that building a ship. It also takes about the same
> amount of time.
>
So, from the above, you can see that from my point of view, building a ship is
much more resource-intensive. So, I use a build action instead of muster.
Why? Because in may campaigns, none of the PC kingdoms were naval powers.
Making this a build action kept my NPC kingdoms (a few of which were
controlled by players who were not involved in the table-top rpg portion) from
quickly dominating the seas.
Here's a scenario for you: A powerful regent has just completed a deal in
which he gained complete access to a new vassals treasury. He determined
then, that if he could dominate the seas, he impose taxes on all sea trade
lanes within his lengthy reach. He decide to triple the size of his fleet.
He's got the cash. With a muster, he can have it in one (1) month!! I
decided that this would be immensely unfair, and had the regent instead use a
Build action, in order to give the rest of the world half a chance.
Think of the US in WWII. Yeah, we had the capability to build whole fleets
(and we had to, to replace what was lost in the beginning of the War), but it
took a loooong time to replace all that. I decided that this paradigm was
easier for a modern role-player lock onto.
In general it may not matter in your game. If you consider that most small
ships only cost a few gold bars to build, then using build or muster will make
little difference.
- -DKE
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