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Thread: Unit Experience

  1. #1
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    So I just came up with a fairly simple system for tracking military units' experience. Here it is, first draft, for anyone interested:

    Any time a unit engages in battle, there is a chance they will earn enough experience to advance a level in training. At the end of each battle, a check is made for each surviving unit. The DC is based on the unit's current level of experience (Green, Regular, or Veteran), it's past experience, and it's performance in the battle. If the check is successful, the unit advances one level of experience, adjusting it's muster/maintenance value accordingly. Veteran units may become Elite, adding +2 GB muster cost, +2 Attack, +2 Morale, and +1 Hits to the unit.

    Unit's Current Level of Training/Experience: DC to advance one level:
    Green............................................. ...........................DC 15
    Regular........................................... ...........................DC 20
    Veteran........................................... ...........................DC 30

    Advancement Modifiers:
    General Experience:
    +1 per battle in which the unit has participated. (Note: this is a cumulative bonus that applies up to the point at which the unit advances a level, at which point the bonus is "reset" to 0).

    Battle Modifiers (these apply only for the check following the battle in which the unit participated):
    +1 per hit inflicted on an enemy unit
    +1 per enemy unit routed by this unit
    +1 per enemy unit destroyed (in addition to the hit inflicted)
    +2 if the unit successfully assaulted and claimed a fortified enemy area at least once during the battle
    -2 per hit taken by the unit
    -4 if the unit routed during the battle
    +2 if the unit managed to rally from a rout

    In addition to these basic modifiers, the DM may award bonuses or penalties for special or unusual actions taken by the unit. These should be within the above guidelines; bonuses should represent successes of some sort, while penalties should represent poor or sub-par performances.



    That's it: pretty simple and straightforward, I think - the only thing to keep track of long-term is the number of battles a unit has fought at its current level of experience. Otherwise it's a case of tracking a unit's battlefield performance, but no long-term record should be necessary for that. Let me know what you folks think.

    Osprey

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    I think this system is a bit too complex if one have more than a very minimum of units. Instead I would suggest using a system where each unit who actively participated in a battle (i.e. didn't spend the entire battle in the reserve) gains on XP. The required XP for various level would be:
    Green: 0
    Regular: 1
    Veteran : 3
    Elite: 6

    The actual numbers could easily be increased if one want the units to become experienced more slowly, but I would guess few units actually survives 6 battles.

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Don E@Jul 28 2004, 03:16 PM
    The actual numbers could easily be increased if one want the units to become experienced more slowly, but I would guess few units actually survives 6 battles.
    That, I guess, would depend on the type of battle the units fought in. If it was just a skirmish, where the unit in question was on the side that won easily, then I wouldn't give them any experience, but if they were in a major battle, with say 10+ units on each side, then experenince would be due to any unit that survived, and the chances of the same unit surviving battle after battle would be very low.

    I'd even add another level to unit experience and call it unique, saying that any unit that survived 10+ major battles would be renowed and would probably take on a unique name or title to highlight their great deeds. Perhaps that is how units like the Iron Guard of Ghoere came about.
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    Absolutely, rewarding XP is as always up to the DM to decide. Some battles would hardly be worth any XP, and some I have played with have been rewarded more than one due to impressive performance.

    In the system we use in the RoE PBeM at the moment there are experience levels called Crack and Guard after the elite level, something that IMO works nicely. Only a very few units that have actually managed to live through many years of campaigning reach these levels.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Don E@Jul 28 2004, 02:59 AM
    Absolutely, rewarding XP is as always up to the DM to decide. Some battles would hardly be worth any XP, and some I have played with have been rewarded more than one due to impressive performance.

    In the system we use in the RoE PBeM at the moment there are experience levels called Crack and Guard after the elite level, something that IMO works nicely. Only a very few units that have actually managed to live through many years of campaigning reach these levels.
    Actually the correct way to work this is to use CR and levels for the units. This is how the 3.5 system keeps things balanced withut having to resort to the old 2nd ed addage of "it is up to the DM to decide".

    While the DM does determine the appropriate CR for the encounter (accounting for any situational modifiers that apply) the basis is set in table form to use and be standardized.

    Instead of going into this method, in order to keep more true to 3.5 I would recommend developing ECL and CR ratings for isuues and apply the 3.5 system (or at least a similar system based on it. The actual exp numbers don't need to be used if a quantum set that is equivalent can be developed).
    Duane Eggert

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    There are two big differences to the character based experience system in the 3.5e books. The first is a battle not being a single clearly defined encounter where the group of oppnents have one set EL. E.g. if the cavalry charged a unit of infantry, wounded it severaly but withdrew later to face of some goblin archers. In the end said unit did not 'defeat' a single opponent, so how are you to judge what the 'effective' EL of such an encounter would be?
    The second is that with an XP scale as presented above the table for correlating the group level with the encounter level would end up with all entried having 1 unit experience point (UXP).

    Unless one wish to track actual XP for every individual unit the system is not fine grained enough to make any benefit from the XP system presented in 3.5e. There is not really any difference between the DM deciding if the unit gains zero, one or two UXP, or the DM setting an, IMO arbitrary, EL to the battle and the unit getting zero, one or two UXP.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Don E@Jul 28 2004, 08:48 PM
    There are two big differences to the character based experience system in the 3.5e books. The first is a battle not being a single clearly defined encounter where the group of oppnents have one set EL. E.g. if the cavalry charged a unit of infantry, wounded it severaly but withdrew later to face of some goblin archers. In the end said unit did not 'defeat' a single opponent, so how are you to judge what the 'effective' EL of such an encounter would be?
    The second is that with an XP scale as presented above the table for correlating the group level with the encounter level would end up with all entried having 1 unit experience point (UXP).

    Unless one wish to track actual XP for every individual unit the system is not fine grained enough to make any benefit from the XP system presented in 3.5e. There is not really any difference between the DM deciding if the unit gains zero, one or two UXP, or the DM setting an, IMO arbitrary, EL to the battle and the unit getting zero, one or two UXP.
    Don E,

    Did you read all of my post? It doesn't look like it.

    I didn't say to use the exp tables from the DMG as written. I said to use the process (i.e., CR, level of unit, etc.)

    Instead of going into this method, in order to keep more true to 3.5 I would recommend developing ECL and CR ratings for isuues and apply the 3.5 system (or at least a similar system based on it. The actual exp numbers don't need to be used if a quantum set that is equivalent can be developed).

    It is without a doubt inifinitely difficult (and useless IMO) to track every individual in a unit live they are with.

    What I meant was that a table system be created using the DMG system as a basis. Each unit can have levels (green through elite for example), then the table then go through the system of the DMG to make a relative exp (I wouldn't use the numbers in the DMG instead I think I would use a 1 to 10 system or something similar).

    Each battle is an encounter (just like the DMG) and each would provide a certain amount of exp to each surviving unit involved, based on that unit's level (green through elite) and the EL (the level set by the DM for the battle accounting for situational modifiers, etc.) and each opponent's CR (again this can be equal to the unitls level as a simplification).

    While having a high level of effort in order to set up what a system like this would do would be to be compliant with 3.5 practices (thus making it easier for DMs and player's to follow). Giving a set amount of exp for an opponent is a pure 2nd ed (and earlier) concept and not supported in 3/3.5. Using a DC to determine exp is likewise a 'new' concept which IMO would add a level of complexity (overall) to the game that is really uneeded if one instead tries to folow or pattern the system after the core rules.

    And I think that you are looking at individual combats vice a battle. This is where the EL of the battle comes into play. The DM sets it based upon all units being able to use their total abilities (advantages and disadvantages). Hence the encounter should account for for units taking on several opponents in order to work better together.

    Regardless I think this bears checking into before being so readily dismissed.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    The major problem with using a system that keeps the experience for the unit after every battle, like the one u proposed Don E, is that if fails to account the fact the individuals die in battle and are replaced by green recruits.

    Using your system, you could have a unit that barely lives, only has 1 hit left, through 10 battles so it has 10 UXP, even though most of the remains of the unit has only lived through 1-2 battles really. And once it is restored, those with exp will again be diluted with the fresh recruits.

    Thus, I think that including chance in the determing of unit level as Osprey presented it, makes the most sense. True, it doesnt totally account for all the losses over time, however, it does at least acknowledge them unlike using set UXP to reach the next level.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

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    Hmm, I think I read your whole post. Rereading it doesn't reveal any new information.

    While your suggestion could be said to be in the 'spirit of 3.5e' this is a somehwhat different issue as those rules are designed for player characters and we are talking about domain assets. While it could be possible to develop a system as you describe it, I find it adds unnecessary complexity. I am generally a person who likes detail, but we are talking about army units, who tend to be an expendable asset for a domain along the lines of potions to characters.

  10. #10
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Hi all,



    Long time since I`ve posted anything...



    In the RoE PBeM we`ve tried to implement XP for units with a great deal of success. It`s not much work to keep track of, and while the actual bonuses a unit gets as it increases in level are moderat, the players enjoy it very much. So I think its worth the effort.



    All units have a level and an XP total, which are closely based on character levels and XP (divided by 1000) from the Core Rules. In addition, each level has a descriptive name:



    Name Level XP Examples

    Raw 1 0 Hastily mustered units, levy

    Green 2 1 Newly musered units

    Regular 3 3 Average units

    Veteran 4 6 Several battles

    Elite 5 10 Few units go past this level

    Crack 6 15

    Guard 7 21



    There are two ways of gaining XP, and that is spending gold and a turn to train the unit (nets it 1 XP) or taking part of a campaign/battle (nets 0-2 XP).



    Note that while experienced units are more effective, they also cost more to upkeep.



    B



    Cheers

    Bjørn



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