Battlepriest of Moradin

[geeman]

At 12:16 PM 7/26/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>There has been exactly one person that has posted opposition to Cerilian

>dwarves having paladins (i.e., Gary) even though he has posted his opinion

>frequently it is still only one person`s opinion. There have been several

>others taking the opposite stand.



I feel obliged to point out a couple of things about the above

comments. First, so what? Nothing in the above has any connection to the

validity of the arguments against the inclusion of dwarven paladins. None

of the problems or issues addressed have been refuted yet in any way

whatsoever, and the addition remains unexplained on anything but the most

cursory level. Second, my opinion is, of course, just that of one person,

but since "me too" posts are redundant and generally frowned upon the fact

that I`m the only one speaking to the issue is not that big a deal. To put

things in context, the polls that have been used to determine what does and

what doesn`t make it into the BRCS have garnered as many as a couple of

dozen votes at best on a site that several thousand people have signed up

on, and that requires only a few clicks.



Gary

[Athos69]

OK, let me sound off on this. This proposed PrCl is something I would do as both an exercise to see if I could actually pull it off, and something that may or may not get included in the Atlas.

I did not write it so that people could get into a pissing match over it -- I wrote it so that I would have something to fall back on in the event that it was decided that Dwarves were forbidden from access to the Paladin class. Even if they are allowed, it should be simple to add them into this PrCl.\

End of mini-rant.

[Don E]

Didn't know it was necessary, but for the record, I second Gary's motion of no paladins of Moradin.
That said I think the Battlepriest PrC, which was the topic of discussion here, is a perfectly viable option in either case. IMO it fills an entirely different niche than any paladin would, focusing more on regular warfare as opposed to the individual quest of seeking out evil that the paladin is so famed for.

[Don E]

I got a few minor issues with the requirements of the class though.
1) This one is kind of obvious IMO. Add a racial requirement of Dwarf. I really don't want to see some cleric of Nesirie running around with this presitge class. :blink:
2) Reduce BAB requirement to +5. That way a cleric won't have to mulitclass with fighter if he wants the class at level 7.
3) Change skill requirements to Lead 10 ranks and Warcraft 5 ranks. Again to allow a 7th levl cleric to take the class.
4) Feats. Change Endurance for Combat Casting. If the character is to cast battle magic without the protection of a dedicated unit I think this is a reasonable requirement. Not only do I personally dislike PrCs that require (IMO) very weak feats as a requirment to justify their powerlevel, but I also don't think it is thematically that fitting. And again the issue of making the class availbable for a 7th level cleric.

[RaspK_FOG]

I would like to question the way you want this class to work if the comments are going to go any further (since I also had some ideas regarding the class requirements):

• Do you think of this class as a low-to-mid oriented one? If so, reducing the requirements to represent what Don E said would be a good idea; if not, I suggest you increase the requirements to those appropriate for a 10th-level character, but the way you mentioned the levels of the above dwarves makes it seem obvious you regard this prestige class as a low-to-mid level class.
• Is this a class every dwarf can get to just by being a cleric? I don't know... Your idea of granting the War domain as a 3rd domain works seamlessly, and the whole class may well not unbalance everything, but I feel that it would be best if took a closer look at your goal: should this be a cleric-based only class, or should it be a majorly-cleric-minorly-fighter-based class?

[Athos69]

Don:

1) Since only Dwarves can be Clerics of Moradin, I thought that restricting it to Dwarves would be redundant.
2) My concept was to have it as a spinoff of a multiclass Cleric/Fighter, heavier on the Cleric part. The idea was that once a Cleric heard the calling of battle, he would spend some time in service of the Kingdom. Conversely if a Fighter heard the calling of Moradin, he could serve in the fashion he knows best.
3,4) Excellent ideas. What do you think of adding the requirement for proficiency in any Martial weapon? This would force a level of Fighter, or at least cost a feat...

RaspK:

This is definately a low-mid PrCl. I'd like this to be a Cl/Ftr type of class, with a heavy emphasis on the Cleric side of things, but a manditory element of the Fighter in there somewhere.

[RaspK_FOG]

OK, me proposal is that you include BOTH Endurance AND Combat Casting. Furthermore, I believe that a weapon proficiency feat requirement is not that good, since it greatly reduces the importance of the War domain granted by the class, since few people ever carry more than 3 weapons:

• 1 melee weapon that they personally prefer over all others.
• 1 ranged weapon, "just in case".
• 1 secondary weapon, "because you can never be too well prepared".

I suppose that one of those neat master feats would fit the bill just perfect; since it's only a few hours I have slept, my mind does not help me a lot, but I think there is one of these that applies on Lead, right? Great Leader something, I think?

Oh well, not focused enough to remember right now...

And the base attack requirement of +5 Don E proposed... I don't know, Don, but I think that an approach closer to "a few fighter levels, let the rest be cleric levels" not only does not hurt, it also suits dwarves a lot! I mean, they really are militant and all, and topping that with the fact that fighter levels never hurt but are always helpful really makes a difference...

For example, when it comes to BAB requirements, a warrior-classed level never hurts! In fact, since warrior classes always increase your BAB whenever you take a level in them, they even help reach such requirements.

Furthermore, while I realise why one would like dwarven clerics of Moradin to be able to take the prestige class without resorting to multi-classing, I also see a good reason to say that they HAVE to mutli-class: it gives a character a certain flavour; in this case, even though clerics are war-ready and dwarven clerics even more so, having a few fighter or other warrior-class levels really helps build this feel of: "I am no mere cleric, I am a Battle-Priest, and I sing the chants and prayers passed down to the members of our reverent church by Moradin in visions of victory over these foul beasts, the orog-kin! And I shall spill my blood along with my brethren in glorious rejoice as a lay down more and more of their filthy numbers!"

[Osprey]

Athos: I like the prestige class concept and general form.

Here's what I'd like to see, however:

WAR should be a general domain of Moradin in Cerilia, since it seems Cerilian dwarves are highly martial but don't have Clangedin Silverbeard as a god of war, unlike their dwarven counterparts in FR or Greyhawk.

That being the case, I'd expect a Battle Priest to have the War domain as a requirement for the PrC. That, in fact, would be the single most exclusive requirement, along with being a priest of Moradin.

I also don't think Destruction is an appropriate domain for priests of Moradin. Doesn't fit a LG deity very well IMO. Strength or Earth would be better.

The other option is to simply grant a bonus domain of the player's choice from among Moradin's available ones. I'm not real familiar with the Complete Divine new domains yet, so can't vouch for or against them, other than that the current War Priest bonus domain is undead-specific and not very suitable for dwarves.

On that note, however: it also doesn't mesh as well with our dwarven battle priest that the PrC levels keep stacking with their turning levels. If they get 2 high saves and a high BAB, then tone that aspect down so that caster level and turning level advance together (once per 2 levels of the PrC). I just don't see dwarven clerics being as specifically opposed to undead, and figure this is just a carryover from your conversion from War Priest in Complete Divine.

Osprey

[Don E]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jul 27 2004, 07:42 AM
1) Since only Dwarves can be Clerics of Moradin, I thought that restricting it to Dwarves would be redundant.

That depends entirely on how you play the game. IMO there is nothing that prevents a human from worshipping Moradin. If you want the class to exclusively be available to dwarven worhsippers of Moradin, then you should include that in the requirements for the class. While flavour text is good, any rules lawyer worth his salt will ensure his halfling cleric of Neisirie takes the class just out of spite.

If you want to limit this class to dwarven priests of Moradin (presonally I have him as the head of the Dwarven pantheon with other gods, but that might not be an issue here) you should include the folowing in the requirments:
Race: Dwarf.
Special: Must have Moradin as a patron deity.

[Don E]

On the issue of extra feats and BAB requirements I do not agree. While it might be thematically cool to require dwarves to take levels as fighter, I believe in the spirit of choice. If you have one set requirement that can only be met at the minimum level by a certain selection of classes you are no longer creating a prestige class, but in effect a core class. It is my opinion that a prestige class should be so flexible that it can be filled be a range of characters. While the Battlepriest of Moradin is a very narrow concept, I don't see any reason why a pure cleric shouldn't be allowed to take the class. I am more disinclined to see a cleric 1/fighter 6 take the class, as the powers available to the character is drastically out of proportion to the regular spells at the character's disposal.

IMO the class would be better suited if one changed the spell requirements to be 2nd level divine spells. That way it could be accessed by pure clerics, paladins, and cleric/fighters. Similarly the feat and skill requirements should be so that any of the abovve could take the class after 7th level.