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  1. #11
    Sindre Berg
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    Samuel Weiss wrote:

    > >though we call them Æser :) Anyway my point was that if you
    > look at how the Vanir's are discribed I seem to recall they looked a
    > bit
    > like my
    > mental picture of an elf...you know delicate, not very strong, that
    > kind
    > of thing....<
    >
    > I have no idea how to make that cool A and E thingie with my computer,
    > but
    > that is how it would be written of course.
    >

    Well I find it rather easy, the letter is resting above my right shift
    :-) You pronounceit like the a in bad....... (I got more cool letters
    øæå :)
    Well actually as far I seem to recall of my Nordic lessons from school,
    the old vikings didn't use that kind of letters, they only had the runes
    after all. But if we have someone from Iceland here their language is
    the closest to the old Nordic, their language hasn't changed that much
    since 1000 AD.

    > As for the Vanir, well Frey was appointed ruler of Alfheim, so that is
    > not a
    > far fetched picture in the least.
    >
    > Samwise
    >
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  2. #12
    Sindre Berg
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    Samuel Weiss wrote:

    > >Hmmm - I had thought that ALL of the Nordic Gods had come from
    > primeaval
    > ice, and had been "licked" free of it to "give it another go". Why is
    >
    > mythology OTHER than Greek myths so hard to get a hold of?<
    >
    > Wow. Not in the least actually. Only the first one (or three depending
    > on
    > which story you read. Also the identities change depending on which
    > story,
    > but that is another topic.) Most of the Norse power came about the old
    >
    > fashoned way-boffing. Usually with courtship rituals related to the
    > earth
    > warming up and becoming fertile after the winter.
    > And let me see....æ cool. Took awhile but I made it work.
    > ·Æsir are the descendants of Odin, Vili, and Ve. Spirti, Will and
    > Holy.
    > And yes it is a bit more difficult to find Norse myth works. Everyone
    > is so
    > caught up with the Greek/Roman one.s But ifyou want really hard, go
    > looking
    > for Celtic or Egyptian sources. There is a trial
    >
    > Samwise
    >

    That's actually rather wrong after my sources. Odin was an Æse and most
    of the other gods were sons of him and Frigg.
    And then it was the other "family of gods "Vanene" which Frøy and Frøya
    were members of, actually they were hostages after the two God families
    declared peace and sent mutual hostages to keep the peace....

    Sindre

  3. #13
    e.piir
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    >At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
    >We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
    >some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.

    I think that christmas and Scandinavian mythology are different things.

  4. #14
    Trizt
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    "e.piir" wrote:
    >
    > >At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
    > >We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
    > >some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.
    >
    > I think that christmas and Scandinavian mythology are different things.

    In both Scandinavian (Asatro and Kalevala) mythologies there are
    christmas (called jul/joulu) which have been celibrated as new year/end
    of the dark period on the 24th December. there have been gifts
    exchanged. as you englanders don't have another word for christmas, we
    have to use that anyhow for our joulu for otherwise you wouldn't have
    any clue what we are talking about.

    So in a way you are right, it's nothing to do with the christian
    christmas, but with christmas.


    //Trizt

  5. #15
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Trizt wrote:

    > In both Scandinavian (Asatro and Kalevala) mythologies there are
    > christmas (called jul/joulu) which have been celibrated as new year/end
    > of the dark period on the 24th December. there have been gifts
    > exchanged. as you englanders don't have another word for christmas, we
    > have to use that anyhow for our joulu for otherwise you wouldn't have
    > any clue what we are talking about.
    >
    > So in a way you are right, it's nothing to do with the christian
    > christmas, but with christmas.

    Would the English word "Yule" be an appropriate translation? That's the
    word for the pagan festival of year's end/longest night as it was brought
    to the British Isles probably via germanic antecedents, or perhaps Danish.
    I'm not sure how closely related the two mythological systems are (first
    impression is fairly distant, but I have no real idea) but the term might
    be more closely related to the idea you wish to convey than "christmas."

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  6. #16
    Trizt
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

    > Would the English word "Yule" be an appropriate translation? That's the
    > word for the pagan festival of year's end/longest night as it was brought
    > to the British Isles probably via germanic antecedents, or perhaps Danish.
    > I'm not sure how closely related the two mythological systems are (first
    > impression is fairly distant, but I have no real idea) but the term might
    > be more closely related to the idea you wish to convey than "christmas."

    That prolly would be a better translation, but it's so unused thise days
    that it can be a bit hard to remeber it and the question would be, do
    all englanders know about this word?

  7. #17
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    In a message dated 2/23/99 12:41:13 PM Central Standard Time, trizt@iname.com
    writes:

    > Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
    >
    > > Would the English word "Yule" be an appropriate translation? That's the
    > > word for the pagan festival of year's end/longest night as it was brought
    > > to the British Isles probably via germanic antecedents, or perhaps
    Danish.
    > > I'm not sure how closely related the two mythological systems are (first
    > > impression is fairly distant, but I have no real idea) but the term might
    > > be more closely related to the idea you wish to convey than "christmas."
    >
    > That prolly would be a better translation, but it's so unused thise days
    > that it can be a bit hard to remeber it and the question would be, do
    > all englanders know about this word?
    >
    Most should. It's printed on most American calendars anyway. Afterall, the
    Isles were pagan before they were Christian! They had a great Druid tradition
    prior to the arrival of Rome. Lately (this century, especially), there has
    been a big revival in Brittany, Wales, Scotland and Ireland sort of
    "resurrecting" ;) these old traditions. But that's another conversation,
    entirely...

    More on topic, I believe "elves" in fantasy literature were taken from the old
    British legends of Faeries. Many of them were human sized mystical people who
    sometimes mingled with the people of the "mundane" world. At least, to me it
    seems more similar to British trads than Norse, Norman, or germanic.
    Incidentally, Annwn (remember Tuar Annwn in Vosgaard?) & the Shadow World
    appears to have been modeled after the old British (Wales contains what
    remains of this culture) Annwn, also known as the Underworld. King Arthur
    lead a great expedition there to recover the 12 Hallows or Treasures of
    Britain. It was pretty much a disaster, but it's a great tale.

    - -DKE

  8. #18
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    A friend tells me that Norse conceptions of elves may have originated in
    early contacts with the Phonecians who we know to have been extracting tin
    and other minerals in the north of Europe. Imagine some Nordic folks
    encountering Phoncian miners, working underground and possessing a superior
    technology.

    KG

  9. #19
    Trizt
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

    > More on topic, I believe "elves" in fantasy literature were taken from the old
    > British legends of Faeries. Many of them were human sized mystical people who
    > sometimes mingled with the people of the "mundane" world. At least, to me it
    > seems more similar to British trads than Norse, Norman, or germanic.
    > Incidentally, Annwn (remember Tuar Annwn in Vosgaard?) & the Shadow World
    > appears to have been modeled after the old British (Wales contains what
    > remains of this culture) Annwn, also known as the Underworld.

    If I don't be all to wrong, wasn't it Tolkien who wrote those first
    Fantasy-Elves, and those where based on many things as old britt
    legends, but even 18th-19th century britt belives how Finns lived and
    the Finnic languages was a modle for the Tolkien elven language. What I
    want to say is that the britt myths are not alone the modle for the
    fantasy elves.

    Don't forget that most of BR is based on the "britt" way of seeing
    things and I have to say that marks 99.9% of all TSR products. It could
    have been nice if TSR would hire some non-english talking people to make
    a module or gameworld and then translate it to english, then you would
    notice some differences.
    Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
    metric system for 3rd edition.

    //Trizt

  10. #20
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
    Guest

    [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

    It was written:

    If I don't be all to wrong, wasn't it Tolkien who wrote those first
    Fantasy-Elves, and those where based on many things as old britt
    legends, but even 18th-19th century britt belives how Finns lived and
    the Finnic languages was a modle for the Tolkien elven language. What I
    want to say is that the britt myths are not alone the modle for the
    fantasy elves.

    Don't forget that most of BR is based on the "britt" way of seeing
    things and I have to say that marks 99.9% of all TSR products. It could
    have been nice if TSR would hire some non-english talking people to make
    a module or gameworld and then translate it to english, then you would
    notice some differences.
    Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
    metric system for 3rd edition.

    //Trizt- ----- End Included Message -----

    The reason non-european history/folklore based RPGs aren't more common is that they don't sell.
    TSR (their BR hiatus decision aside) isn't stupid when it comes to selling RPGs.

    Along with BR and Ars Magica, the other best RPG of all time is the world of Tekumel; known in various incarnations as
    "Empire of the Petal Throne", "Swords and Glory" or any of a half dozen Tsolyani (a country on Tekumel) names which I won't attempt to spell here. The various cultures of the world aren't based on the traditional western european mythos. It would help to have a guide (ie an experienced player/DM) to show you the culture, but the printed material, though rare, is very complete. If you ever have the chance to play/purchase this trully unique game do so!

    Randax

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