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  1. #1
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    BR isn't dead yet. The cover of the latest Dragon (#249) has a great cover of
    Micheal Roele "grounding" his bloodline before being slain by the Gorgon. If BR
    were secretly dead, I don't think pictures like this would make the cover.

    Randax

  2. #2
    TOMMY.ASHTON@ASU.Ed
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    Yeah, possibly but I don't know how Dragon is but usually in publishing the
    works are done months before publication. Besides, Tony's cover was just
    awesome. I bought the Dragon just for the cover, took the cover and gave the
    rest of the Dragon to a friend. Up until recently everbody was gun-ho about
    the relaunch of Birthright, first "later this year", next Ed's message that it
    would be "sometime this year", and now the little "indefiniately" notice on
    the TSR webpage. What I am trying to get at is these messages came out
    within about three months time so the cover could have been to coincide with
    the original planned release of the New Birthright rules. I hate to be the
    doubting Thomas (pun intended) but I have seen this situation with the Marvel
    RPG (1st ed.) and three or four versions of Champions lines. It doesn't look
    good. I sent a message to Ed to send on to Adkison praising Birthright and
    did not get a response, even from Ed. For Ed, who used to respond to
    everything, even when we told him not to, this is scary. Hold your breath,
    say your prayers, cross your fingers, and keep your lucky item handy and hope
    that TSR doesn't blow a good thing away.

    T

    On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Randall W. Porter@6550 wrote:

    >
    > BR isn't dead yet. The cover of the latest Dragon (#249) has a great cover of
    > Micheal Roele "grounding" his bloodline before being slain by the Gorgon. If BR
    > were secretly dead, I don't think pictures like this would make the cover.
    >
    > Randax
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

  3. #3
    Taragin@sprintmail.co
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    The DRAGON cover mentioned was actually supposed to be the cover of the
    BOOK OF REGENCY, but since that was postponed in its release…

  4. #4
    RLaRue@aol.co
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    Randax said:

    >

    Or.... that was to be the cover of the Book of Regency and since we won't be
    seeing that, they wanted to at least use the art they'd paid Tony for.

    Lisa Stevens said in the Council of Greyhawk chat a few days ago that
    Birthright, while a great setting, had horrible sales (this is not a big
    secret). The line is now under review and all products are on hold
    indefinitely. :( This is not a direct quote, but it is the basic idea. If
    anyone has the specifics, please add to or correct this information.

    With Alternity's release this year and Greyhawk's big return next year (this
    year was Greyhawk's small return), we won't see a Birthright revival until Y2K
    at the earliest. And, if my guess is right, Y2K will be the release of AD&D
    3rd Edition using modified Alternity rules. To coincide with the release of
    3rd edition. we'll see the first official setting for the new rules, Dominia
    of Magic the Gathering fame.

    Maybe Y2K+1...

    Rick

    PS I just want everyone know, I really hope I'm wrong (God knows I have been
    before ;). We'll know for sure one way or the other when Dungeon magazine
    stops taking Birthright submissions.

    PPS How's it going Randax?

  5. #5
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    In a message dated 98-07-02 15:07:09 EDT, you write:

    > BR isn't dead yet. The cover of the latest Dragon (#249) has a great cover
    > of
    > Micheal Roele "grounding" his bloodline before being slain by the Gorgon.
    > If BR
    > were secretly dead, I don't think pictures like this would make the cover.
    >

    I don't see the logic. They used a Birthirght picture but the issue, AFAIK,
    contains no Birthright info, either. They're just using a snazzy picture, and
    that's all.

    - -DKE

  6. #6
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    - ----- Begin Included Message -----
    Randax said:

    >

    Or.... that was to be the cover of the Book of Regency and since we won't be
    seeing that, they wanted to at least use the art they'd paid Tony for.

    Lisa Stevens said in the Council of Greyhawk chat a few days ago that
    Birthright, while a great setting, had horrible sales (this is not a big
    secret). The line is now under review and all products are on hold
    indefinitely. :( This is not a direct quote, but it is the basic idea. If
    anyone has the specifics, please add to or correct this information.

    With Alternity's release this year and Greyhawk's big return next year (this
    year was Greyhawk's small return), we won't see a Birthright revival until Y2K
    at the earliest. And, if my guess is right, Y2K will be the release of AD&D
    3rd Edition using modified Alternity rules. To coincide with the release of
    3rd edition. we'll see the first official setting for the new rules, Dominia
    of Magic the Gathering fame.

    Maybe Y2K+1...

    Rick

    PS I just want everyone know, I really hope I'm wrong (God knows I have been
    before ;). We'll know for sure one way or the other when Dungeon magazine
    stops taking Birthright submissions.

    PPS How's it going Randax?

    - ----- End Included Message -----

    Stooooop! You're frightening me with your logic. I don't work in publishing,
    but Rick's line of reasoning sounds all to familiar to someone who lives in
    corporateland. If true, I might as well consider the setting dead and just
    keep my eye open to see if it gets revived sometime. I didn't play D&D for 15
    years (1980-1995) until BR came along. A three year hiatus would send me to
    other games. So many games, so little time.

    The sad part about this is that I didn't go to GenCon during the same time
    frame. Hey, if you don't play D&D why go? If there's no BR events at the Con
    (last year was great!) I don't see too much point in attending. I've met a lot
    of great folks at GenCon, Rick, Blastin, Memnoch and other great BR players
    who I should write but never do. I would sorely miss their company.

    Speaking of missing, I've accepted a new supervisory post at my company. With
    the job comes a close scrutiny of my computer activities. This means I'll
    probably have to type the dreaded spell of dismissal know as 'unsubscribe' the
    end of this week. I'll miss the intelligent, measured discussions of the
    fictitous world we all love. I learned a lot.


    Hopefully I'll still see a few of you a GenCon.

    Randax

  7. #7
    veryfastperson@juno.com
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    >Lisa Stevens said in the Council of Greyhawk chat a few days ago that
    >Birthright, while a great setting, had horrible sales (this is not a
    >big
    >secret).

    The reason that it had horrible sales, is that it was horribly marketed.
    I mean no disrespect, but i have just come to BR of late (well, last year
    is when i basically came to love BR - and THAT's when i started buyin all
    their products. but how long has it been out? and i just found it last
    year?) and am now trying to buy all that remains in my stores of the BR
    material. I actually found birthright from the card game Spellfire - when
    their kicker pack released the new Birthright cards. it interested me, so
    i picked up the campaign setting. and even spellfire had bad marketing. i
    think i was one of the only 3 people in all of upstate new york that ever
    bought spellfire cards (some, please, correct me if i am wrong)

    I remember in economics this last year (hey i just graduated from HS, so
    this stuff is relatively fresh in my mind:) the three P's of marketing.
    Product - TSR has a great product with Birthright; Price - hey, i was a
    poor high school senior but had enough for some of the big stuff. no
    complaint here; and Promotion - that is the only place that i think TSR
    fell pretty bad with Birthright. with darksun, and forgotten realms, even
    Dragon lance, there are tons of other accessories; my personal favorites
    were the Books (that also brought me to birthrigth when i picked up Iron
    Throne, and the Spider's test with a gift certificate i recieved:). Books
    gave us a good starting point to "get to know" the world. Forgotten
    realms has run a little crazy with the NPC's and so too with Dark Sun (i
    haven't read any DragonLance books, so i can't comment there). Birthright
    did a good job of not running away with high level characters and such,
    but there has only been 5 books put to print (As far as i know). I know
    this because i have all five, and have been waiting for a sixth book to
    hit the shelves. but i heard the Falcon and the Wolf got cancelled, so i
    was bummed.

    Birthright is a great place, but it has a stereotype of being too
    political. I know this from experience with my gaming group. they found
    the rules to complex, and thus, we just found Cerilia to be a land of
    great adventure, and other people can rule it. I didn't mind this, but i
    think if there had been more literature and such for them to read - they
    would have come to love birthright as much as i have.

    Well, enough of my ranting. If birthright is a dead fish, i guess that
    means i'll have to go buy that book of priestcraft before it's gone
    (there's only 2 copies left!). So my rant will end here.

    Thanks,
    Erik

    >The line is now under review and all products are on hold
    >indefinitely. :( This is not a direct quote, but it is the basic
    >idea. If
    >anyone has the specifics, please add to or correct this information.
    >
    >With Alternity's release this year and Greyhawk's big return next year
    >(this
    >year was Greyhawk's small return), we won't see a Birthright revival
    >until Y2K
    >at the earliest. And, if my guess is right, Y2K will be the release
    >of AD&D
    >3rd Edition using modified Alternity rules. To coincide with the
    >release of
    >3rd edition. we'll see the first official setting for the new rules,
    >Dominia
    >of Magic the Gathering fame.
    >
    >Maybe Y2K+1...
    >
    >Rick
    >
    >PS I just want everyone know, I really hope I'm wrong (God knows I
    >have been
    >before ;). We'll know for sure one way or the other when Dungeon
    >magazine
    >stops taking Birthright submissions.
    >
    >PPS How's it going Randax?
    >
    >----- End Included Message -----
    >
    >Stooooop! You're frightening me with your logic. I don't work in
    >publishing,
    >but Rick's line of reasoning sounds all to familiar to someone who
    >lives in
    >corporateland. If true, I might as well consider the setting dead and
    >just
    >keep my eye open to see if it gets revived sometime. I didn't play
    >D&D for 15
    >years (1980-1995) until BR came along. A three year hiatus would send
    >me to
    >other games. So many games, so little time.
    >
    >The sad part about this is that I didn't go to GenCon during the same
    >time
    >frame. Hey, if you don't play D&D why go? If there's no BR events at
    >the Con
    >(last year was great!) I don't see too much point in attending. I've
    >met a lot
    >of great folks at GenCon, Rick, Blastin, Memnoch and other great BR
    >players
    >who I should write but never do. I would sorely miss their company.
    >
    >Speaking of missing, I've accepted a new supervisory post at my
    >company. With
    >the job comes a close scrutiny of my computer activities. This means
    >I'll
    >probably have to type the dreaded spell of dismissal know as
    >'unsubscribe' the
    >end of this week. I'll miss the intelligent, measured discussions of
    >the
    >fictitous world we all love. I learned a lot.
    >
    >
    >Hopefully I'll still see a few of you a GenCon.
    >
    >Randax
    >
    >************************************************* **************************
    >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    >line
    >'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

    __________________________________________________ ___________________
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  8. #8
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    > From: Morgramen the Magician
    > > Birthright is a great place, but it has a stereotype of being too
    > > political. I know this from experience with my gaming group. they found
    > > the rules to complex, and thus, we just found Cerilia to be a land of
    > > great adventure, and other people can rule it. I didn't mind this, but
    i
    > > think if there had been more literature and such for them to read -
    they
    > > would have come to love birthright as much as i have.
    > >
    > I agree that Birthright has gotten a 'bad rap' as too political. It
    seems
    > to me that it was marketed as a strategical war game (which it is) but
    should
    > also have been supported by the typical Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk style
    of
    > typical role playing material. I truly believe that if TSR had
    supported the
    > existing material with the more typical role playing supplements, then
    > Birthright would have appealed to a much larger market. I must say
    however,
    > that the existing material can easily be adapted for the more traditional
    > fantasy realm style of play, but IMHO, many people either a) Did not want
    to do
    > the extra work or b) never bought into BR as a result of this lack.
    > Now as I understand things, TSR was going to do this very thing with
    the
    > relaunch of the product line, and if my opinion counts for anything, I
    think
    > they should. A cleaner version of the existing rules, and greater depth
    on the
    > setting and NPC's (such as seen in FR & Greyhawk) could only draw new
    > customers. I mean, we would all still buy the new products, and all the
    people
    > who hated BR because of it's 'traditional inadequacies' would no doubt
    take a
    > second look at the product line. Hence, sales could only IMPROVE!

    OK, this is the idealist in me speaking. He doesn't get out very much,
    usually my cynical side kicks him around, so I'll let him go for a bit...
    The political stuff is the fun of BR! It's what sets it apart from
    Greyhawk and the Realms, etc etc. W/o domain stuff, BR would just be
    another generic fantasy setting, admittedly with rather well developed
    cultures. And I love the domain stuff. It is fun to play a struggling
    regent, just starting out with barely a footman to your name. And it is
    really rewarding to get him up to having a well developed, well defended,
    civilized realm, a power to be reckoned with, and to start wheeling and
    dealing with the big boys, Avanil and the Gorgon, or whoever. That's what
    drew me to the setting, that's why it's the only TSR setting I run (though
    I have a soft spot in my heart for Spelljammer, the red headed stepchild of
    sci-fi games). People that don't see that bother me. It reminds me of the
    interview with Gary Gygax, in Dragon mag, where he said roleplaying and
    storytelling needs to be ignored, and action should rule (paraphrased).
    That hurts. And if that's the general consensus of the gamers out there,
    then that may be why BR didn't do so well. But I hope not.
    Now, I'll let my cynical side take over. Money talks, and due to
    marketing, el Nino, or some rare conjunction of the stars, BR must not have
    been making money like TSR hoped, or it wouldn't be on hiatus now. Part of
    this may be the production values of the boxes, those things were
    beautiful, and it must have cost a fortune to produce. So anyway, if we
    get BR back, it will be changed, no doubt. I'd expect more Tribes type
    stuff, you know, kinda scaled back, and less BR boxed set glory, but that's
    ok. What we also need are some good adventures. I never bought any of the
    adventures for BR, they mainly seemed pretty bad. They weren't consistent,
    they seemed kinda rushed and badly edited to me, and they had this creeping
    generitzation feel, like the drow that showed up. BR needs some
    spectacular stuff to attract attention. I think that's where the list
    comes in.
    There's a lot of creativity floating around here. The netbook is a good
    testament to that. So write up some good adventures, and send them to
    Dungeon. Like the current elven debacle, if we could pull an adventure out
    of it, and include some sidebars that would showcase the way domain stuff
    would fit in to that, that would be awesome!
    As a final note, I don't think BR is gone. Ed and Carrie were good with
    us in the past, and I'm going to put some of my faith in human nature in
    them (it's in short supply for me). But the thing is, this has happened
    before. On the Alternity list, we were dismayed when Alternity was delayed
    and pushed back. The game wasn't even released yet, and we were all
    excited. But they told us that never fear, it would arrive, and sure
    enough it did, and is doing rather well as far as I know. And some of the
    same people were involved in the hiatus for BR. Rich Baker, Jim Butler,
    David Eckleberry, and Bill Slavicsek were the A-Team. Wasn't Bill the one
    that put BR on hold? If he says it will be back, then I'd trust him on it,
    cause it worked for Alternity.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

  9. #9
    bloebick@juno.com (Benja
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:49:58 -0400 "Daniel McSorley"
    writes:
    > The political stuff is the fun of BR! It's what sets it apart from
    >Greyhawk and the Realms, etc etc. W/o domain stuff, BR would just be
    >another generic fantasy setting, admittedly with rather well developed
    >cultures. And I love the domain stuff.

    >Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

    Absolutely! It was the fact that the game was political that I bought it
    when it came out. I've been a faithful player, quickly buying each
    accessory and adventure as soon as it hit the shelves. I've always been
    a backstabbing political gamer, even when playing D&D (currently Mystara)
    on the old Isle of Dread! So Birthright was my cup of tea!

    OK... so some of the adventures weren't too good. Alright, most of them
    pretty much stunk, because they kept throwing in non-BR creatures, and
    didn't really have any domain steps included. I think Warlock was pretty
    interesting, but if your party could get through it in 1 month gaming
    time, you were either gods or using wish spells. So you had to have a
    domain action happen, but no setup for it. As a FR accessory, it would
    have been maybe above average or so (not having played much FR, this may
    be wrong). But Legends of the Hero Kings was pretty cool, I thought, and
    that was the last released adventure.

    I hope that Birthright is brought back, in way scaled down version. Big,
    flashy, glowing boxes like we're used to are nice, but cost way to much.
    Drop back to Tribes format (make higher quality maps, though - Tribes map
    is too flimsy) and I'll still buy the stuff. Yeah, I may grumble a bit
    because I'm used to the old stuff, but new players wouldn't know any
    better. And a little publicity other than a picture saying "Be a King"
    would help out some.

    Well, that's my soap-box sermon. I'm done.

    Benjamin

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  10. #10
    Morgramen the Magician
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    Here comes my rant on the subject:

    > The reason that it had horrible sales, is that it was horribly marketed.
    > I mean no disrespect, but i have just come to BR of late (well, last year
    > is when i basically came to love BR - and THAT's when i started buyin all
    > their products.

    I hate to be a "Me too'er", but this is about the same time that I fell in
    love with BR. I had had the Box Set since it first came out, but retired it to
    my shelves after looking at the pictures. It's fatal flaw (as I saw it then)
    was it's over whelming (sp?) political structure, and poor organization & rule
    descriptions. (I don't know how many times I read the rule books, but I never
    actually *learned* how to play until I got on line and met all the wonderful
    people on this list. Thanks to several of these individuals (you know who you
    are) who actually took the time to answer my questions, I eventually learned how
    to 'play' BR. I am still what I would consider a novice Birthrighter, but will
    develop my skills with time.

    > but how long has it been out? and i just found it last
    > year?) and am now trying to buy all that remains in my stores of the BR
    > material.

    Again, "Me too."

    > Birthright is a great place, but it has a stereotype of being too
    > political. I know this from experience with my gaming group. they found
    > the rules to complex, and thus, we just found Cerilia to be a land of
    > great adventure, and other people can rule it. I didn't mind this, but i
    > think if there had been more literature and such for them to read - they
    > would have come to love birthright as much as i have.
    >

    I agree that Birthright has gotten a 'bad rap' as too political. It seems
    to me that it was marketed as a strategical war game (which it is) but should
    also have been supported by the typical Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk style of
    typical role playing material. I truly believe that if TSR had supported the
    existing material with the more typical role playing supplements, then
    Birthright would have appealed to a much larger market. I must say however,
    that the existing material can easily be adapted for the more traditional
    fantasy realm style of play, but IMHO, many people either a) Did not want to do
    the extra work or b) never bought into BR as a result of this lack.
    Now as I understand things, TSR was going to do this very thing with the
    relaunch of the product line, and if my opinion counts for anything, I think
    they should. A cleaner version of the existing rules, and greater depth on the
    setting and NPC's (such as seen in FR & Greyhawk) could only draw new
    customers. I mean, we would all still buy the new products, and all the people
    who hated BR because of it's 'traditional inadequacies' would no doubt take a
    second look at the product line. Hence, sales could only IMPROVE!
    Hey, if players can understand the intricacies of the Planescape setting,
    playing a regent can't be much more difficult!

    At least, that's the way I see it.

    Morgramen

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