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  1. #11
    Craig Mellare
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    At 04:49 AM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

    >> From: Morgramen the Magician > > Birthright is a great place, but it has a stereotype of being too

    >> > political. I know this from experience with my gaming group. they
    found

    >> > the rules to complex, and thus, we just found Cerilia to be a land
    of

    >> > great adventure, and other people can rule it. I didn't mind this,
    but

    >i

    >> > think if there had been more literature and such for them to read=20
    - -

    >they

    >> > would have come to love birthright as much as i have.

    >> >

    >> I agree that Birthright has gotten a 'bad rap' as too political. =20
    It

    >seems

    >> to me that it was marketed as a strategical war game (which it is)
    but

    >should

    >> also have been supported by the typical Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk
    style

    >of

    >> typical role playing material. I truly believe that if TSR had

    >supported the

    >> existing material with the more typical role playing supplements,
    then

    >> Birthright would have appealed to a much larger market. I must say

    >however,

    >> that the existing material can easily be adapted for the more
    traditional

    >> fantasy realm style of play, but IMHO, many people either a) Did not
    want

    >to do

    >> the extra work or b) never bought into BR as a result of this lack.

    >> Now as I understand things, TSR was going to do this very thing
    with

    >the

    >> relaunch of the product line, and if my opinion counts for anything,
    I

    >think

    >> they should. A cleaner version of the existing rules, and greater
    depth

    >on the

    >> setting and NPC's (such as seen in FR & Greyhawk) could only draw=20
    new

    >> customers. I mean, we would all still buy the new products, and all
    the

    >people

    >> who hated BR because of it's 'traditional inadequacies' would no
    doubt

    >take a

    >> second look at the product line. Hence, sales could only IMPROVE!

    >

    > OK, this is the idealist in me speaking. He doesn't get out very
    much,

    >usually my cynical side kicks him around, so I'll let him go for a
    bit...

    > The political stuff is the fun of BR! It's what sets it apart from

    >Greyhawk and the Realms, etc etc. W/o domain stuff, BR would just be

    >another generic fantasy setting, admittedly with rather well developed

    >cultures. And I love the domain stuff. It is fun to play a=20
    struggling

    >regent, just starting out with barely a footman to your name. And it
    is

    >really rewarding to get him up to having a well developed, well
    defended,

    >civilized realm, a power to be reckoned with, and to start wheeling=20
    and

    >dealing with the big boys, Avanil and the Gorgon, or whoever. That's
    what

    >drew me to the setting, that's why it's the only TSR setting I run
    (though

    >I have a soft spot in my heart for Spelljammer, the red headed stepchild
    of

    >sci-fi games). People that don't see that bother me. It reminds me of
    the

    >interview with Gary Gygax, in Dragon mag, where he said roleplaying=20
    and

    >storytelling needs to be ignored, and action should rule (paraphrased).=20

    >That hurts. And if that's the general consensus of the gamers out
    there,

    >then that may be why BR didn't do so well. But I hope not.

    I agree with you that if you remove the domain turns and the ability to
    play a ruler then BR would become just like ever other campaign world
    except for the fact that it is extremely well though
    out. This is the second main reason I also will only play in a BR
    campaign, I like the fact the cultures seem to make sense. One of the
    things that really bothered me about FR is that its cultures didn't seem
    to make sense. You a European style culture in the centre, anciant egypt
    in the south, more europe in the west with arabic in the south west but
    then strange things like the land in the shing south (I forget which one)
    which is likewise Euorpean in culture when none of its neighbours were.
    The development of cultures was carried out in the hap haxard manner that
    the campaign world was developed and I believe suffered for it. BR on the
    other hand, has a well though out cultural development that sees things
    like the Anuirean domains near the Khinasi being affected culturally by
    its neighbourss ie Elinie or those near the Rjurik being likewise
    affected by its neighbours, ie Dhoesone.

    The other main advantage of BR is its a world where the fighter can
    compete. FR is completely overrun with wizards, the only place of any
    significance that is not ruler by wizards in FR is Cormyr and thats only
    because the war wizards see fit to leave Azoun on the throne! In BR your
    humble fighter can take advantage of the low magic nature of the world to
    serve as some thing other than a wizards bodyguard/cannon fodder.

    I am also horrified by the attitude that Gygax seems to typify. If you
    are not interested in roleplaying and storytelling, why play D&D at all.
    Those who are interested in just the action would be better served
    playing a D&D style computer game were they can endlessly run through
    pointless dungeons to kill their inhabitants and steal their treasure.


    Craig

  2. #12
    James Ray
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    LOL - It all depends on what you consider "role-playing". Surely, in every
    game, there are times for role-playing, and then times for hacking and
    slashing. Hacking and slashing is at the heart of AD&D. There are many
    more rules for combat than there are for role-playing, and there is a
    reason for that: role-playing varies widely from group to group, but
    combat shouldnt. I havent read the Gygax interview, but I cant imagine
    that he has advocated the end of role-playing, probably just the
    long-winded and superfluous stuff. If you dont know what I mean by that,
    then dont worry...you either arent doing it, or you LIKE it :) The big
    test as to wether you have enough role-playing in your campaign..."Do you,
    as DM, KNOW the PCs? What motivates them, what frightens them, what will
    let them know its time to strike, or time to run?" (The WORST thing is for
    your players' characters to keep hacking and slashing when they are
    SUPPOSED to be running for cover). Character development, the most
    important part of the role-playing, happens during play, or even during
    free-form "supplemental" sessions (ahhh....you are in a local tavern, and
    the ale is in the FRIDGE).

    The political stuff is great, if you want it. If you DONT, Cerilia is
    STILL a great place to adventure. I like the adventure modules, especially
    since role-playing is so integral to their resolutions. At every turn, the
    Pcs seem to risk alienating SOME-body when the dust settles, and they get
    back to their capitals (sp?). As a matter of fact, the political stuff is
    the engine behind most of my campaigns role-playing. There's no way to
    hack and slash your way out of the "Matter of Justice Event" - well, no ver
    effective ones, anyway :)

    Birthright really sucks as a Tactical Warplaying Game, though. I still
    cant make sense of the War Card rules (but dont tell my players...I'll
    besieged with orders of invasions and declarations of war), and I hope that
    THAT is what they change with the re-release. Im currently toying with the
    idea of fine-tuning them myself, but WOW, the amount of work that would
    take...

    Birthright is, in my opinion, the most challenging setting TSR has,
    especially for the DM. If one thing goes wrong, you end up having to
    explain what THIS particular NPC was up to, WHO he was doing it for, etc
    etc. EVERY stinking adventure leaves loose ends, and you never know WHICH
    those pesky players are gonna want to follow up (hint - make just make sure
    where the FIRST one leads :) BUT, its also a LOT of fun.

    - ----------
    I am also horrified by the attitude that Gygax seems to typify. If you
    are not interested in roleplaying and storytelling, why play D&D at all.
    Those who are interested in just the action would be better served
    playing a D&D style computer game were they can endlessly run through
    pointless dungeons to kill their inhabitants and steal their treasure.


    Craig

  3. #13
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    >
    > I hate to be a "Me too'er", but this is about the same time that I
    fell in
    >love with BR.

    "me too."


    - -Clay

  4. #14
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    We'll see what happens in the future, neh? The "relaunch" is certainly
    something to look forward too, but I for one am happy to have a complete
    Cerilia. It's nice to have the entire continent detailed at last (Tribes -
    at last!) but whether they come back to it or not is another issue.

    Have you all written letters yet?

    Sepsis hit on this a while ago, and while I haven't gotten a response yet
    (nor do I anticipate receiving one) I've sent one in requesting the
    continuation of BR.

    Heck, bombard the upper management with email if you like too. They put
    their addy's on the web site for a reason. Give the addy's to all your
    players too, because I know most of us are DMs. Ya, the sales sucked, and
    why is up to debate, but most of us feel it was due to bad marketing. It's
    hard to fault them when the inside folks almost knew for certain the
    company was dying. (We may decry WotC for taking TSR, but remember that if
    they hadn't TSR would be getting its RIP)

    If you all want BR to live, then let the powers that be know it. Ed and
    Rich and Carrie and all the other TSR staffers that hit this list allready
    KNOW we want it to live, and I think they do too, but we all work, or have
    worked, in companies before. The people that need to know are folks like
    Peter Adkisson, Bill Slavicsek, and others. Hit www.tsrinc.com and find
    out who's who on the mail list and get them the cry:

    Save Birthright!

    I don't know any other setting that I've bought into that has inspired one
    of my players to go out and buy EVERYTHING on the books. I mean it, I got
    a new player a few months ago and he bought every single sourcebook and
    adventure out there (and he even kept the adventures wrapped in plastic...
    wow).

    The other folks that need to know are the distributors. Tell your local
    game shop that. TSR and WotC get their money when the distributor buys the
    product from them...

    Well, work calls!
    L8R
    Tim Nutting

  5. #15
    Sweet Home
    Guest

    BR isn`t dead yet

    >From: "Tim Nutting"
    >To:
    >Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - BR isn't dead yet
    >Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:38:26 -0700

    They put
    >their addy's on the web site for a reason. Give the addy's to all your
    >players too, because I know most of us are DMs. Ya, the sales sucked,
    and
    >why is up to debate, but most of us feel it was due to bad marketing.
    It's
    >hard to fault them when the inside folks almost knew for certain the

    Did you know that when it was originally released, the Forgotten Realms
    sales sucked... I think that people are not going to buy products
    without being sure it will be supported. That problem was created when
    TSR began chopping products line. I think what people are thinking is:
    Let's see what happens with this line of product and have some feedback
    before we invest in them.

    Like the majority of you I fell in love with the Birthright setting. I
    never was a big buyer of TSR stuff but I now have a lot of birthright
    sourcebooks, adventures, players domain and novels (actually I have all
    the ones that were available at my hobby shop). The material is simply
    awesome and I think anyone who does spend some time on it can deny this
    fact. The world is incredibly alive and leaves doors open for any type
    of game, hack n slash, political struggle or role play adventuring.

    I don't personaly use any of the regent rules and use this world only
    for an adventure setting for my players. But because of all the details
    and all the features my players will never get bored.

    I hope the folks at WoC will realise that to have a sucessfull world it
    takes time and money. As new people discover the exquisite world of
    Birthright they will just begin buying it. But so many new worlds were
    created these last years people just don't like the idea to switching to
    a new soon to be dead line...

    Sylvain Tremblay

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