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Thread: BR isn`t dead yet
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07-08-1998, 11:37 PM #11Craig MellareGuest
BR isn`t dead yet
At 04:49 AM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> From: Morgramen the Magician > > Birthright is a great place, but it has a stereotype of being too
>> > political. I know this from experience with my gaming group. they
found
>> > the rules to complex, and thus, we just found Cerilia to be a land
of
>> > great adventure, and other people can rule it. I didn't mind this,
but
>i
>> > think if there had been more literature and such for them to read=20
- -
>they
>> > would have come to love birthright as much as i have.
>> >
>> I agree that Birthright has gotten a 'bad rap' as too political. =20
It
>seems
>> to me that it was marketed as a strategical war game (which it is)
but
>should
>> also have been supported by the typical Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk
style
>of
>> typical role playing material. I truly believe that if TSR had
>supported the
>> existing material with the more typical role playing supplements,
then
>> Birthright would have appealed to a much larger market. I must say
>however,
>> that the existing material can easily be adapted for the more
traditional
>> fantasy realm style of play, but IMHO, many people either a) Did not
want
>to do
>> the extra work or b) never bought into BR as a result of this lack.
>> Now as I understand things, TSR was going to do this very thing
with
>the
>> relaunch of the product line, and if my opinion counts for anything,
I
>think
>> they should. A cleaner version of the existing rules, and greater
depth
>on the
>> setting and NPC's (such as seen in FR & Greyhawk) could only draw=20
new
>> customers. I mean, we would all still buy the new products, and all
the
>people
>> who hated BR because of it's 'traditional inadequacies' would no
doubt
>take a
>> second look at the product line. Hence, sales could only IMPROVE!
>
> OK, this is the idealist in me speaking. He doesn't get out very
much,
>usually my cynical side kicks him around, so I'll let him go for a
bit...
> The political stuff is the fun of BR! It's what sets it apart from
>Greyhawk and the Realms, etc etc. W/o domain stuff, BR would just be
>another generic fantasy setting, admittedly with rather well developed
>cultures. And I love the domain stuff. It is fun to play a=20
struggling
>regent, just starting out with barely a footman to your name. And it
is
>really rewarding to get him up to having a well developed, well
defended,
>civilized realm, a power to be reckoned with, and to start wheeling=20
and
>dealing with the big boys, Avanil and the Gorgon, or whoever. That's
what
>drew me to the setting, that's why it's the only TSR setting I run
(though
>I have a soft spot in my heart for Spelljammer, the red headed stepchild
of
>sci-fi games). People that don't see that bother me. It reminds me of
the
>interview with Gary Gygax, in Dragon mag, where he said roleplaying=20
and
>storytelling needs to be ignored, and action should rule (paraphrased).=20
>That hurts. And if that's the general consensus of the gamers out
there,
>then that may be why BR didn't do so well. But I hope not.
I agree with you that if you remove the domain turns and the ability to
play a ruler then BR would become just like ever other campaign world
except for the fact that it is extremely well though
out. This is the second main reason I also will only play in a BR
campaign, I like the fact the cultures seem to make sense. One of the
things that really bothered me about FR is that its cultures didn't seem
to make sense. You a European style culture in the centre, anciant egypt
in the south, more europe in the west with arabic in the south west but
then strange things like the land in the shing south (I forget which one)
which is likewise Euorpean in culture when none of its neighbours were.
The development of cultures was carried out in the hap haxard manner that
the campaign world was developed and I believe suffered for it. BR on the
other hand, has a well though out cultural development that sees things
like the Anuirean domains near the Khinasi being affected culturally by
its neighbourss ie Elinie or those near the Rjurik being likewise
affected by its neighbours, ie Dhoesone.
The other main advantage of BR is its a world where the fighter can
compete. FR is completely overrun with wizards, the only place of any
significance that is not ruler by wizards in FR is Cormyr and thats only
because the war wizards see fit to leave Azoun on the throne! In BR your
humble fighter can take advantage of the low magic nature of the world to
serve as some thing other than a wizards bodyguard/cannon fodder.
I am also horrified by the attitude that Gygax seems to typify. If you
are not interested in roleplaying and storytelling, why play D&D at all.
Those who are interested in just the action would be better served
playing a D&D style computer game were they can endlessly run through
pointless dungeons to kill their inhabitants and steal their treasure.
Craig
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07-09-1998, 07:42 AM #12James RayGuest
BR isn`t dead yet
LOL - It all depends on what you consider "role-playing". Surely, in every
game, there are times for role-playing, and then times for hacking and
slashing. Hacking and slashing is at the heart of AD&D. There are many
more rules for combat than there are for role-playing, and there is a
reason for that: role-playing varies widely from group to group, but
combat shouldnt. I havent read the Gygax interview, but I cant imagine
that he has advocated the end of role-playing, probably just the
long-winded and superfluous stuff. If you dont know what I mean by that,
then dont worry...you either arent doing it, or you LIKE it :) The big
test as to wether you have enough role-playing in your campaign..."Do you,
as DM, KNOW the PCs? What motivates them, what frightens them, what will
let them know its time to strike, or time to run?" (The WORST thing is for
your players' characters to keep hacking and slashing when they are
SUPPOSED to be running for cover). Character development, the most
important part of the role-playing, happens during play, or even during
free-form "supplemental" sessions (ahhh....you are in a local tavern, and
the ale is in the FRIDGE).
The political stuff is great, if you want it. If you DONT, Cerilia is
STILL a great place to adventure. I like the adventure modules, especially
since role-playing is so integral to their resolutions. At every turn, the
Pcs seem to risk alienating SOME-body when the dust settles, and they get
back to their capitals (sp?). As a matter of fact, the political stuff is
the engine behind most of my campaigns role-playing. There's no way to
hack and slash your way out of the "Matter of Justice Event" - well, no ver
effective ones, anyway :)
Birthright really sucks as a Tactical Warplaying Game, though. I still
cant make sense of the War Card rules (but dont tell my players...I'll
besieged with orders of invasions and declarations of war), and I hope that
THAT is what they change with the re-release. Im currently toying with the
idea of fine-tuning them myself, but WOW, the amount of work that would
take...
Birthright is, in my opinion, the most challenging setting TSR has,
especially for the DM. If one thing goes wrong, you end up having to
explain what THIS particular NPC was up to, WHO he was doing it for, etc
etc. EVERY stinking adventure leaves loose ends, and you never know WHICH
those pesky players are gonna want to follow up (hint - make just make sure
where the FIRST one leads :) BUT, its also a LOT of fun.
- ----------
I am also horrified by the attitude that Gygax seems to typify. If you
are not interested in roleplaying and storytelling, why play D&D at all.
Those who are interested in just the action would be better served
playing a D&D style computer game were they can endlessly run through
pointless dungeons to kill their inhabitants and steal their treasure.
Craig
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07-09-1998, 03:41 PM #13Clayton F. HintonGuest
BR isn`t dead yet
>
> I hate to be a "Me too'er", but this is about the same time that I
fell in
>love with BR.
"me too."
- -Clay
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07-09-1998, 06:38 PM #14Tim NuttingGuest
BR isn`t dead yet
We'll see what happens in the future, neh? The "relaunch" is certainly
something to look forward too, but I for one am happy to have a complete
Cerilia. It's nice to have the entire continent detailed at last (Tribes -
at last!) but whether they come back to it or not is another issue.
Have you all written letters yet?
Sepsis hit on this a while ago, and while I haven't gotten a response yet
(nor do I anticipate receiving one) I've sent one in requesting the
continuation of BR.
Heck, bombard the upper management with email if you like too. They put
their addy's on the web site for a reason. Give the addy's to all your
players too, because I know most of us are DMs. Ya, the sales sucked, and
why is up to debate, but most of us feel it was due to bad marketing. It's
hard to fault them when the inside folks almost knew for certain the
company was dying. (We may decry WotC for taking TSR, but remember that if
they hadn't TSR would be getting its RIP)
If you all want BR to live, then let the powers that be know it. Ed and
Rich and Carrie and all the other TSR staffers that hit this list allready
KNOW we want it to live, and I think they do too, but we all work, or have
worked, in companies before. The people that need to know are folks like
Peter Adkisson, Bill Slavicsek, and others. Hit www.tsrinc.com and find
out who's who on the mail list and get them the cry:
Save Birthright!
I don't know any other setting that I've bought into that has inspired one
of my players to go out and buy EVERYTHING on the books. I mean it, I got
a new player a few months ago and he bought every single sourcebook and
adventure out there (and he even kept the adventures wrapped in plastic...
wow).
The other folks that need to know are the distributors. Tell your local
game shop that. TSR and WotC get their money when the distributor buys the
product from them...
Well, work calls!
L8R
Tim Nutting
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07-09-1998, 08:17 PM #15Sweet HomeGuest
BR isn`t dead yet
>From: "Tim Nutting"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - BR isn't dead yet
>Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:38:26 -0700
They put
>their addy's on the web site for a reason. Give the addy's to all your
>players too, because I know most of us are DMs. Ya, the sales sucked,
and
>why is up to debate, but most of us feel it was due to bad marketing.
It's
>hard to fault them when the inside folks almost knew for certain the
Did you know that when it was originally released, the Forgotten Realms
sales sucked... I think that people are not going to buy products
without being sure it will be supported. That problem was created when
TSR began chopping products line. I think what people are thinking is:
Let's see what happens with this line of product and have some feedback
before we invest in them.
Like the majority of you I fell in love with the Birthright setting. I
never was a big buyer of TSR stuff but I now have a lot of birthright
sourcebooks, adventures, players domain and novels (actually I have all
the ones that were available at my hobby shop). The material is simply
awesome and I think anyone who does spend some time on it can deny this
fact. The world is incredibly alive and leaves doors open for any type
of game, hack n slash, political struggle or role play adventuring.
I don't personaly use any of the regent rules and use this world only
for an adventure setting for my players. But because of all the details
and all the features my players will never get bored.
I hope the folks at WoC will realise that to have a sucessfull world it
takes time and money. As new people discover the exquisite world of
Birthright they will just begin buying it. But so many new worlds were
created these last years people just don't like the idea to switching to
a new soon to be dead line...
Sylvain Tremblay
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