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  1. #1
    Bearcat
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    Well, I think that it would be fairly simple to explain how
    bloodlines tend to die out. According to the rules when to scions marry
    their children will have a bloodline strength equal to the lower of the two
    parents'. This means that, since there are not enough great lines out there
    to keep intermarrying, the bloodlines of second sons and daughters would
    gradually diminish over the centuries, going from Great, to (if lucky)
    major, to minor, to tainted to non existent. Remember, because of this rule
    of diminishing power, a scion's descendents will never have bloodlines more
    powerful than the scion himself.

    Bearcat
    lcgm@elogica.com.br
    Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

  2. #2
    Bearcat
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    > I thought the rule stated that the child got the average of the parents'
    >scores, and its derivation was that of the parent with the higher one?
    > Also, the Ceremony of Designation from the BoP can give the heir a boost.
    >Say a child was born to two scions, one of Anduiras, 40, the other of
    >Reynir, 20, the kid would have Anduiras 30. The parent w/ a 40 may do some
    >RP investitures, kill an awnshegh or two, and end up with a 50, say. He can
    >then make sure that the child receives that bloodline upon his death.
    >Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

    What I was saying is that the scions with Anduiras _major_ 40 and
    Reynir _minor_ 20 will have children with Anduiras _minor_ 30. Although this
    really doesn't have much effect on the child himself I believe that over the
    generations it all tends to even out (I haven't seen in any of the
    expantions a tainted 50 bloodline).
    As for the BoP, I don't have any access to it living in Brazil, but
    I have to assume that this ceremony can't be performed if the scion dies,
    shall we say, unexpectedly (hey, they don't describe Anuirean politics as
    "backstabbing" for nothing...)

    Bearcat
    lcgm@elogica.com.br
    Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

  3. #3
    Bearcat
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    >Of course, if you rule that children always have the lesser strength you
    >could give the game a hopeless / struggling feel. In other words, the
    >nobles are fighting to keep divine essence to themselves (similar to the
    >way old families are gihting for their blood rights in Robin Hobb's book
    >The Live Ship Traders.)

    I doesn't neccessarily mean that you will become progressively less
    powerful. It is just a way to make sure that no scions exceed the power of
    the legendary founder of their ancient line. The easiest way to get around
    this is choose your spouse carefully (anyone here saying: political-arranged
    marriages for the PCs?)

    Bearcat
    lcgm@elogica.com.br
    Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

  4. #4
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    >
    > But if we apply this to Birthright, we won't get the population numbers
    > everyone is assuming are accurate in Cerilia. In 1500 years, we can
    > have about 50 generations. To be a little more conservative, I will assume
    > that it takes 2 generations to double the population. This is something like
    > an average of 2.7 children per couple. 2 to the 25th power is 33 million.

    Don't forget one important detail..while clerics with teh ability to cure
    disease are somewhat plentiful on Cerilia, not all peasant families have
    access to them. As antibiotics aren't invented at this point, you can
    also safely assume that 3 of those 4 children won't live to see their 13th
    birthday...such is as it was in the 11th-15th centuries ..even after taht
    it didn't get a whole lot better until sulfa drugs came around in the
    1800's..

  5. #5
    Dave Keyser
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    David Sean Brown wrote:


    > Don't forget one important detail..while clerics with teh ability to cure
    > disease are somewhat plentiful on Cerilia, not all peasant families have
    > access to them. As antibiotics aren't invented at this point, you can
    > also safely assume that 3 of those 4 children won't live to see their 13th
    > birthday...such is as it was in the 11th-15th centuries ..even after taht
    > it didn't get a whole lot better until sulfa drugs came around in the
    > 1800's..
    >

    Disease is one possibility, yes, but in real
    life, parents knew that chances were some of their children would die,
    which is why they would have 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 children. This was quite
    common. They would have more children to compensate, which kept
    the population growing.

    And remember, I was only talking about the blooded, who are much
    more likely to be noble and have access to clerics that cure disease.
    They can also afford to have more children early in case some die.
    So 33 million from one noble after 1500 years is reasonable, if we
    apply straight real world population growth rates to Birthright.

    Since this leads to far more people populating Cerilia than we care
    to see, the assumption should be birth rates in Birthright are much
    lower than they have been in real world history, and then throw in
    some devastating famines, wars, diseases, curses, etc every once
    in a while to keep the population down.

    Or you could just not worry about it, which is what I plan to do.

  6. #6
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    David Sean Brown wrote:

    > > But if we apply this to Birthright, we won't get the population numbers
    > > everyone is assuming are accurate in Cerilia. In 1500 years, we can
    > > have about 50 generations. To be a little more conservative, I will assume
    > > that it takes 2 generations to double the population. This is something like
    > > an average of 2.7 children per couple. 2 to the 25th power is 33 million.
    >
    > Don't forget one important detail..while clerics with teh ability to cure
    > disease are somewhat plentiful on Cerilia, not all peasant families have
    > access to them. As antibiotics aren't invented at this point, you can
    > also safely assume that 3 of those 4 children won't live to see their 13th
    > birthday...such is as it was in the 11th-15th centuries ..even after taht
    > it didn't get a whole lot better until sulfa drugs came around in the
    > 1800's..

    Another thing to keep in mind is the dilution of the bloodline. Assuming that all
    these folks are not marrying within the family (ew!) or mating with other blooded
    characters, even a bloodline of the highest strength (100) will dwindle down to
    nothing in a matter of nine generations.

    1st gen: 100
    2nd gen: 50
    3rd gen: 25
    4th gen: 13 (do you round down or up?)
    5th gen: 7
    6th gen: 4
    7th gen: 2
    8th gen: 1
    9th gen: 0

    - -Gary

  7. #7
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    Shaun Hodgson wrote:

    > Another thing to keep in mind is the dilution of the bloodline.
    > Assuming that all
    > these folks are not marrying within the family (ew!) or mating with
    > other blooded
    > characters, even a bloodline of the highest strength (100) will
    > dwindle down to
    > nothing in a matter of nine generations.
    >
    > 1st gen: 100
    > 2nd gen: 50
    > 3rd gen: 25
    > 4th gen: 13 (do you round down or up?)
    > 5th gen: 7
    > 6th gen: 4
    > 7th gen: 2
    > 8th gen: 1
    > 9th gen: 0
    >
    > I think that this is a very valid point.
    >
    > I can imagine that just after the big bang, and after all the stabbing
    > through the heart rampages died down a bit that those non-nobles
    > amongst the Blooded would be looking for a place to hide from these
    > Sword wielding maniacs that want to stab you through the heart.
    >
    > The Nobles have generally been fairly insular, and so by intermarriage
    > between blooded nobles, it is possible to maintain strong bloodlines
    > that we see in the current time. The bastard offspring, and other
    > non-noble scions would breed out the bloodline that they have in a
    > matter of generations.
    >
    > If you round down when halving the bloodscore for offspring, then when
    > a score is zero, these people no longer have a bloodline. Also, in
    > order to account for bastards, etc in the most recent generations, you
    > could say that a bloodline of a scion with a bloodscore less than 5 is
    > all but undetectable by the known detection spells. This can leave a
    > greater number of blooded characters in the campaign, but most will
    > have no powers, and will go through life without ever knowing they are
    > blooded, and breeding this branch of the line out of existence in the
    > next few generations.

    I'm glad you liked it! Anyway, this whole "everybody would have a bloodline by
    now" thing has a couple of other problems that I can see.

    1. It's based on the population of the last 300 years in which human population
    growth has gone bonkers. I don't have any figures on medieval-Renaissance
    population, but it can't be anything like the past 300 years. Hell, I don't
    think it can be anything like the first century of that 300 years. The
    1700's? Incredible amounts of "open" land to steal from native Americans,
    Australians and Africans? The size and technology of ships finally reaching a
    point where migration could be a continental process? Industrialization? It's
    just not a good comparison.

    2. The 3,000,000 descendants of dusty old King Whoever + his "illegitamates" as
    well. If you are even going to speculate about illegitamates then I think you
    also have to speculate about the legitimacy of the legitimates. Is it any
    small wonder that some mommy is going to tell her children that they are of the
    long, proud line of the royal family rather than admit that they might be of
    the crass, uneducated, yet
    strangely-attractive-in-a-forbidden-passion-kind-of-way butcher that owns the
    shop down the street? I rather suspect there were more than a few "legit"
    kings whose RL birthright was not much more than a smock and a winning
    smile....

    3. Realism: Who needs it? I've had this rant before, so I'll just let it go at
    that.

    BTW, what is going on in my head with all these charts lately? Population
    statistics, level distribution, blah, blah, blah. I'm not usually into this
    sort of thing. I'm all about story, man.... Lately, I'm Captain Fractions or
    something.

    - -Gary

  8. #8
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    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    Well I warned you I would come back to this when I got back so you have had
    a couple of weeks to hide. Its too damn late now. Read on

    >Shaun Hodgson wrote:

    >> Another thing to keep in mind is the dilution of the bloodline.
    >> Assuming that all these folks are not marrying within the
    >> family (ew!) or mating with other blooded characters, even a
    >>bloodline of the highest strength (100) will dwindle down to
    >> nothing in a matter of nine generations.

    >> 1st gen: 100
    >> 2nd gen: 50
    >> 3rd gen: 25
    >> 4th gen: 13 (do you round down or up?)
    >> 5th gen: 7
    >> 6th gen: 4
    >> 7th gen: 2
    >> 8th gen: 1
    >> 9th gen: 0
    >>
    >> I think that this is a very valid point.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> The Nobles have generally been fairly insular, and so by intermarriage
    >> between blooded nobles, it is possible to maintain strong bloodlines
    >> that we see in the current time. The bastard offspring, and other
    >> non-noble scions would breed out the bloodline that they have in a
    >> matter of generations.

    >> If you round down when halving the bloodscore for offspring, then when
    >> a score is zero, these people no longer have a bloodline. Also, in
    >> order to account for bastards, etc in the most recent generations, you
    >> could say that a bloodline of a scion with a bloodscore less than 5 is
    >> all but undetectable by the known detection spells. This can leave a
    >> greater number of blooded characters in the campaign, but most will
    >> have no powers, and will go through life without ever knowing they are
    >> blooded, and breeding this branch of the line out of existence in the
    >> next few generations.

    Don Lail replying to Shaun Hodgson;
    OK it seems that I should have mentioned certain things that I thought
    were so obvious that actually stating them might seem insulting. Oops !

    1) We are talking about not just one bloodline but hundreds of them,
    post-Deismaar and its aftermath. Of course multiplying that times
    the series you described above will only make for more zeroes in
    generation 9 unless there is interrmarriage of the those who are
    blooded in generations that precede it, taken by itself.

    2) This pool of the part blooded however is reinforced every generation by
    hundreds and hundreds of new bastards. With the sheer weight of numbers
    thus implied intermarriage between bastard lines is inevitable which will
    of couse halt the dilution. Furthermore given the typical medieval attitude
    towards trade and commerce then it was the bastards who should have created
    the 1st Guilder Regents.

    3) Using the typical convention of 25 years between generations there have
    been 60 generations since Deismarr (1500/25). Are you sure you still want
    to argue this ?

    4) Trivia. There should have been far more men blooded at Deismaar than
    women. Thus the men who won blooded brides in the post-Deismaar aftermath
    should have produced the strongest leaders in the next generation.

    There should be a few tragedies in the bardic repetoire of wives set
    aside (divorced with impunity) in favor of new blooded spouses.

    >Gary V. Foss replying to Shaun Hodgson
    >I'm glad you liked it! Anyway, this whole "everybody would have a bloodline by
    >now" thing has a couple of other problems that I can see.

    >Gary V. Foss continues;
    >1. It's based on the population of the last 300 years in which human population
    >growth has gone bonkers. I don't have any figures on medieval-Renaissance
    >population, but it can't be anything like the past 300 years. Hell, I don't
    >think it can be anything like the first century of that 300 years.

    Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    a) Write this down somewhere. Most of the European migration of the past 300
    to 500 years is due to population pressures in the main with religious
    persecution coming in a rather distant second.
    b) Family sizes are SMALLER than they were 100 to 500 years ago by incredible
    margins. You seem to be confusing the rate of growth with the amount of
    growth.

    >Gary V. Foss continues;
    >The 1700's? Incredible amounts of "open" land to steal from native Americans,
    >Australians and Africans?

    Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    Which does not apply to China or India does it ? However I will acknowledge
    there may have been some small effect that has yet to be documented from the
    wide open spaces. It feels right. ::shrug:: Its simply not universal.

    >Gary V. Foss continues;
    >The size and technology of ships finally reaching a point where migration
    >could be > a continental process?

    Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    Sorry, I can flat tell you that the ships that brought our ancestors here in
    the 1600 to 1870 period were very small and easily within the size of those in
    the BR game. It is sometime after 1870 approximately that the ship sizes
    increased so much, IIRC.

    >Gary V. Foss continues;
    >Industrialization? It's just not a good comparison.

    Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    I was going with my pre-1900 genealogy experience but what does
    industrialization have to do with population growth in this context ?

    >Gary V. Foss continues;
    >2. The 3,000,000 descendants of dusty old King Whoever + his "illegitamates"
    > as well. If you are even going to speculate about illegitamates then I
    > think you also have to speculate about the legitimacy of the legitimates.
    > Is it any small wonder that some mommy is going to tell her children that
    > they are of the long, proud line of the royal family rather than admit
    > that they might be of the crass, uneducated, yet >
    strangely-attractive-in-a-forbidden-passion-kind-of-way butcher that owns
    > the shop down the street? I rather suspect there were more than a few
    > "legit" kings whose RL birthright was not much more than a smock and a >
    winning smile....

    Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    This would have been a lot funnier if you had known that "the 3,000,000
    descendants of dusty old King Whoever + his 'illegitamates' as well ". dealt
    with "acknowledged" bastards only. For that matter this also dealt only with
    children whose paternity could be documented. If you add in unacknowledged
    bastards and undocumented births the number would be quite a bit larger. :)
    Bad Answer. Try again. Still you turn.

    Btw had it occurred to you that in BR paternity can be "proven" by the
    childs bloodline ? And of course its (the bloodline's) existance can not be
    denied.

    *( Children whose noble fathers have acknowledged their paternity).

    >Gary V. Foss continues;
    >3. Realism: Who needs it? I've had this rant before, so I'll just let it go
    at that.

    Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    I am not sure I can explain this since you do not appear to be interested in
    the answer. Oh well.

    The only way to curb this that I have come up with so far is to make
    conception a voluntary, conscious, decision on the part of all blooded scions.

    L8R

  9. #9
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    J. D. Lail wrote:

    > Well I warned you I would come back to this when I got back so you have had
    > a couple of weeks to hide. Its too damn late now. Read on
    >
    > >Shaun Hodgson wrote:
    >
    > >> Another thing to keep in mind is the dilution of the bloodline.
    > >> Assuming that all these folks are not marrying within the
    > >> family (ew!) or mating with other blooded characters, even a
    > >>bloodline of the highest strength (100) will dwindle down to
    > >> nothing in a matter of nine generations.
    >
    > >> 1st gen: 100
    > >> 2nd gen: 50
    > >> 3rd gen: 25
    > >> 4th gen: 13 (do you round down or up?)
    > >> 5th gen: 7
    > >> 6th gen: 4
    > >> 7th gen: 2
    > >> 8th gen: 1
    > >> 9th gen: 0
    > >>
    > >> The Nobles have generally been fairly insular, and so by intermarriage
    > >> between blooded nobles, it is possible to maintain strong bloodlines
    > >> that we see in the current time. The bastard offspring, and other
    > >> non-noble scions would breed out the bloodline that they have in a
    > >> matter of generations.
    >
    > >> If you round down when halving the bloodscore for offspring, then when
    > >> a score is zero, these people no longer have a bloodline. Also, in
    > >> order to account for bastards, etc in the most recent generations, you
    > >> could say that a bloodline of a scion with a bloodscore less than 5 is
    > >> all but undetectable by the known detection spells. This can leave a
    > >> greater number of blooded characters in the campaign, but most will
    > >> have no powers, and will go through life without ever knowing they are
    > >> blooded, and breeding this branch of the line out of existence in the
    > >> next few generations.
    >
    > Don Lail replying to Shaun Hodgson;
    > OK it seems that I should have mentioned certain things that I thought
    > were so obvious that actually stating them might seem insulting. Oops !
    >
    > 1) We are talking about not just one bloodline but hundreds of them,
    > post-Deismaar and its aftermath. Of course multiplying that times
    > the series you described above will only make for more zeroes in
    > generation 9 unless there is interrmarriage of the those who are
    > blooded in generations that precede it, taken by itself.

    I know that you said this was so obvious as to seem insulting, but I'm afraid I
    still don't understand what you mean here.... I think you're proposing that
    bloodline strength would be kept alive by the number of intermarriages between
    blooded characters. I'd agree with the general principle of that, but I don't think
    it do much more than extend the inevitable. If blooded characters represent one in
    a thousand of the Cerilian population (which is the number I've been using) and all
    those survivors of Deismaar returned to their native lands after the battle, it
    seems unlikely that they would all intermarry.

    > 2) This pool of the part blooded however is reinforced every generation by
    > hundreds and hundreds of new bastards. With the sheer weight of numbers
    > thus implied intermarriage between bastard lines is inevitable which will
    > of couse halt the dilution. Furthermore given the typical medieval attitude
    > towards trade and commerce then it was the bastards who should have created
    > the 1st Guilder Regents.

    You know, as a bastard myself, I'm going to have to contend part of the basic
    premise of your argument. You seem to think we illegitimate folks are a bit more
    prevalent than I have noticed in my experience, and it isn't as if I haven't had my
    eye out. I admit that I don't have any sort of genealogical/sociological basis for
    my comments here, but the argument seems to be based upon the existence of thousands
    of illegitimate children multiplying like tribbles in a spacestation granary. While
    I know that bastards such as myself are biologically predisposed towards lascivious
    behavior, sex appeal and the rampant breeding such characteristics entail, I can
    tell you that in practice our evolutionary advantage over the rest of the gene pool
    is relatively slight.

    In addition, I would love to think that most people have sex outside of marriage
    regularly, as plundering the fruits of that holiest of institutions would not only
    give me pleasure as a devout secularist, but would help occupy my weekends
    enormously. Unfortunately, I don't know that's the case any more now than in
    medieval times, so I still play D&D on weekends rather that A&A. (Adultery &
    Assignations.)

    > 3) Using the typical convention of 25 years between generations there have
    > been 60 generations since Deismarr (1500/25). Are you sure you still want
    > to argue this ?

    I think this is another one of those "so obvious as to be insulting" things that I'm
    going to have to ask you to explain to me. The number of generations since Deismaar
    seems like one of the things that would dilute bloodlines as described in the
    earlier message.

    > >Gary V. Foss continues;
    > >1. It's based on the population of the last 300 years in which human population
    > >growth has gone bonkers. I don't have any figures on medieval-Renaissance
    > >population, but it can't be anything like the past 300 years. Hell, I don't
    > >think it can be anything like the first century of that 300 years.
    >
    > Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    > a) Write this down somewhere. Most of the European migration of the past 300
    > to 500 years is due to population pressures in the main with religious
    > persecution coming in a rather distant second.

    OK, I've duly noted this in the margin of my copy of The History of Western Society,
    volume 2. Unfortunately, I still don't think it's relevant. European migration of
    the past 300-500 years all occurred sometime after the medieval period if my
    understanding of the Gregorian calendar is correct. I still think the problem here
    is that you are applying population growth and migration information from volume 2
    (the 16th through 20th centuries) to an imaginary setting that is better suited to
    volume 1 (the 5th through 15th.)

    Besides, how did migration come into this? If memory serves, I only mentioned it as
    an example of how the time period that you were discussing differed from the time
    period that the campaign is based on. (It's been a long time, and I don't keep
    email that old, so I'm quite possibly off on this.)

    > b) Family sizes are SMALLER than they were 100 to 500 years ago by incredible
    > margins. You seem to be confusing the rate of growth with the amount of
    > growth.

    I admit that the distinction is rather vague to me in the context of the argument.
    Let's see... rate of growth would be kind of like a percentage, right? Something
    like: 5%/generation. Amount of growth would be a number representing the difference
    in size right? There might be 10,000 more people in generation B than in previous
    generation A..... OK, I think I got it.

    So what? Neither of these things show how a bloodline would be continued through
    generations.

    Incidentally, you've tacked on a couple of centuries to the time period you were
    originally discussing. We started off by talking about the past 300 years, didn't
    we? I don't think it helps your argument to just throw in the 16th and 17th
    centuries at this stage.

    > >Gary V. Foss continues;
    > >The 1700's? Incredible amounts of "open" land to steal from native Americans,
    > >Australians and Africans?
    >
    > Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    > Which does not apply to China or India does it ? However I will acknowledge
    > there may have been some small effect that has yet to be documented from the
    > wide open spaces. It feels right. ::shrug:: Its simply not universal.

    Actually, I've read quite a lot of documentation on how the era of colonization
    effected the growth of European population. When I brought this up, however, I
    hadn't intended to show it as an example of population growth, just one of the many
    factors that separated the centuries.

    > >Gary V. Foss continues;
    > >Industrialization? It's just not a good comparison.
    >
    > Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    > I was going with my pre-1900 genealogy experience but what does
    > industrialization have to do with population growth in this context ?

    If memory serves, this was just another example of the massive differences between
    the last three centuries and that of the medieval period. Actually, I thought this
    was so obvious as to be insulting.... I'll explain: The era of population growth
    that you used as your basis of comparison was also an era of massive
    industrialization, particularly the latter two of the last three centuries.
    Industrialization is often coupled with massive population growth. In the medieval
    period in which Birthright is set there is no massive industrialization occurring.
    Therefore, the comparison of the last three centuries to the centuries in which BR
    is set is not valid.

    > >Gary V. Foss continues;
    > >2. The 3,000,000 descendants of dusty old King Whoever + his "illegitamates"
    > > as well. If you are even going to speculate about illegitamates then I
    > > think you also have to speculate about the legitimacy of the legitimates.
    > > Is it any small wonder that some mommy is going to tell her children that
    > > they are of the long, proud line of the royal family rather than admit
    > > that they might be of the crass, uneducated, yet >
    > strangely-attractive-in-a-forbidden-passion-kind-of-way butcher that owns
    > > the shop down the street? I rather suspect there were more than a few
    > > "legit" kings whose RL birthright was not much more than a smock and a >
    > winning smile....
    >
    > Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    > This would have been a lot funnier if you had known that "the 3,000,000
    > descendants of dusty old King Whoever + his 'illegitamates' as well ". dealt
    > with "acknowledged" bastards only. For that matter this also dealt only with
    > children whose paternity could be documented. If you add in unacknowledged
    > bastards and undocumented births the number would be quite a bit larger. :)
    > Bad Answer. Try again. Still you turn.

    Oh, c'mon, it was still funny! Besides, I don't think you responded to the point of
    the message. That was that the legitimate offspring might very well not have been
    really legit in the first place. Just a couple of strategically placed offspring
    could throw off the entire descendant thing that your talking about.

    > Btw had it occurred to you that in BR paternity can be "proven" by the
    > childs bloodline ? And of course its (the bloodline's) existance can not be
    > denied.

    Now, this is a good point. Unlike the real world, a bloodline is really good
    evidence of paternity. It's not quite as foolproof as a DNA test (ask O.J.) but is
    very good evidence. It isn't exactly "proof" of paternity, however. Who knows if
    Hamlet or Claudius is the proud father, eh? Supposedly they would have the same
    bloodline and derivation.... But I'm inclined to give you this one for simplicity's
    sake.

    > >Gary V. Foss continues;
    > >3. Realism: Who needs it? I've had this rant before, so I'll just let it go
    > at that.
    >
    > Don Lail replying to Gary V. Foss;
    > I am not sure I can explain this since you do not appear to be interested in
    > the answer. Oh well.

    If it is only my lack of interest that stops you from explaining this then please go
    right ahead. I hadn't intended to discount anybody's opinion. I had simply stated
    my opinion already and didn't feel I should bore everyone by doing so again. By all
    means, make your explanation. I'm all ears.

    > The only way to curb this that I have come up with so far is to make
    > conception a voluntary, conscious, decision on the part of all blooded scions.

    Well, that sounds like a pretty bizarre solution to me. Conception a voluntary
    act? I'll buy into sex as a voluntary act, but conception I'm going to have to
    argue with. I can't really see giving all blooded characters an automatic blood
    ability that allows them to choose to impregnate or not to impregnate. What shall
    we call this new power? Ovum Manipulation? Divine Contraception? Haelyn's
    Immunity to Babies? While I am not a big "realism" guy, this seems to be a
    deviation from reality that I can't endorse.

    - -Gary

  10. #10
    Eric Scarazzo
    Guest

    find a way to limit # of bloodlines [BIRTH

    > bloodlines tend to die out. According to the rules when to scions marry
    > their children will have a bloodline strength equal to the lower of the two
    > parents'. This means that, since there are not enough great lines out there
    > to keep intermarrying, the bloodlines of second sons and daughters would

    My ruling on that has been to give children the strength of the parent
    with the higher bloodline score. And, yes, I know that this will allmost
    always lead to the child having the more pure strength (great rather than
    major, etc.) I figure, however, that the greater score will overpower. I
    prefer this rule to having children with always progressively lower
    strength ratings.

    Of course, if you rule that children always have the lesser strength you
    could give the game a hopeless / struggling feel. In other words, the
    nobles are fighting to keep divine essence to themselves (similar to the
    way old families are gihting for their blood rights in Robin Hobb's book
    The Live Ship Traders.)

    Eric

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