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  1. #1
    Tommy Ashton II
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    At 08:30 PM 6/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
    >
    >Now, I've heard it said on this mailing list that the gods
    >absolutely do not ever appear to anything on Cerilia.
    This is wrong. While the "big oath" is still in effect, the gods due still
    sometimes appear as avatars but not to the EXTENT other TSR world's gods
    do. The Book of Priestcraft stated that Eloele (sp?) did often appear to
    men. This is also refered to for Erik and Haelyn. Nesiree has appeared in
    at the end of at least on published adventure, I believe in either the
    Cities of the Sun or The Legend of the Hero Kings. Avani was supposed to
    have been the midwife at el-Arrassi's birth(1) and according to the BOP
    "Although few can claim to have recieved a visit from their goddess in this
    form, she has appeared to her worshippers regardless of their station in
    life, from humble farmers to dread kings(2)" (1.Cities of the Sun; 2.Book
    of Priestcraft, pg.4). In some of the stories that have appeared in the
    Rjurik books Eric has appeared in some way. When Birthright started out
    the "big oath" was pretty air tight. Since then the writers have become
    more lapse in letting them slip through. The avatars probably wouldn't
    appear in battle, unless the avatar quest spell was cast, but they should,
    and do in my campaign, show up subtly from time to time, especially the
    young gods (Kirche and Eloele). Laerme only seems to want to appear in dreams.
    >I must admit that
    >I've bent this rule a little bit and Cuiraecen's avatar has shown up in my
    >campaingn on at least one occasion I can remember.
    It is your campaign and meant to be fun. Play it that way (especially if
    TSR stops Birthright). I just recommend not letting Birthright become a
    powergamer realm otherwise it loses its own special appeal.

    > Also, I'd be
    >interested to know if anyone has evered figured out why avatar stats were
    >included when it would seem that avatars a few and far between?

    I think the main reason is to give you the option. The second is that the
    diety section of the Priestcraft book fits the standard format of the other
    pantheon books published by TSR. Finally, there is a questing priest spell
    for avatar form in the BOP.

    T

  2. #2
    Caleb Chitwood
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    This is something I've always thought about too. The rulebook seems to
    contradict itself since it says that the Gods swore off appearing incarnate,
    yet they still give stats for avatars. Now, I guess you could say that an
    avatar isn't exactly the same thing as the god incarnate or something along
    those lines, but that's always how I've defined avatar. When the gods
    battled at Diesmaar, I assumed that it was their avatars that were doing the
    battling. Now, I've heard it said on this mailing list that the gods
    absolutely do not ever appear to anything on Cerilia. I must admit that
    I've bent this rule a little bit and Cuiraecen's avatar has shown up in my
    campaingn on at least one occasion I can remember. So I guess what I'm
    doing w/ this post is giving my response to a few of the questions raised by
    Jim Cooper and raising a few of my own.
    So the answer that I'm giving is this... Jim, you're right about a few of
    the gods not being around for the Cataclysm... that's why I didn't feel
    very bad about Cuiraecen popping up, because, as far as I know he wasn't
    there for the big oath that the "repalcement killers" took. But, I'm still
    wondering how other people on this list feel about this. Also, I'd be
    interested to know if anyone has evered figured out why avatar stats were
    included when it would seem that avatars a few and far between? Anyway,
    just my two cents concerning this topic.. I'm sure I'll find some more spare
    change in the future, too : )

    Caleb

  3. #3
    argash
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    On Tuesday, June 30, 1998 7:25 PM
    Jim Cooper wrote:

    > Hey y'all:
    >
    >(In the interest of getting people off the current topics of
    >discussion):
    >
    >I have a question for all of you. This never really occurred to me
    >before, until I forced myself to think about it (yeah, well, that's
    >usual for me! :D ). Anyway, I was thinking about the current pantheon
    >of BR gods and their relationships to each other. And then it hit me:
    >
    >3 of the gods were NOT human!
    >
    >Yeah, 'Mr. Studd', 'Woo Baby', and 'Miss Thang' (Cuiraecen, Eloele, and
    >Laerme, respectively) all came from the other gods. And who said the
    >gods didn't have any fun! My question is:
    >
    >What does this mean?
    >
    >I guess I should explain. The old gods were really active in their
    >human cultures, and now the new gods are too (I assume), being that they
    >were once human; they still have fond memories of their mortal lives.
    >But what does this mean for the 'children' of these former mortals. I
    >distinctly remember that they came AFTER the Battle of Deismaar, so
    >these guys weren't really mortal humans, or really anything at all. In
    >fact, aren't they a result of the mixing of the portions of the other
    >gods' energies? Are they just pure energy beings? Does this mean they
    >take a less active role in Cerilia and with their worshippers? What
    >does this mean to these gods? What does this imply concerning their
    >world perspective?
    >
    >I ask because this has become a very important question in my game (the
    >gods are an integral part of my campaign story). I'm still working
    >through these questions myself, but I'm interested to hear what the rest
    >of you all think about these three gods (or the rest of them, for that
    >matter).
    >
    >Cheers,
    >Darren


    For the storyline in my campaign I have Cuiraecen working with (sometimes
    for) his father. I don't know if that helps you any but thats the way that i
    did it. It fits in preatty good with the "official" TSR rules on page 75 of
    the BR rulebook it says that Cuiraecen is Haelyn's herald and goes wherever
    his father sends him I think they did this because his parents were both
    human and god and therefore they know what it is like for both gods and
    humans where Cuiraecen knows only what it is like to be a god and cannot
    have human emmotions (kind of like Data from ST:TNG except now opption of an
    emotions chip). as for as the other two I have yet to incorperate them into
    my game but when the time comes i will probably do it they same way.

    ************************************************** **************************
    ***
    Name: Erik ellison
    Nickname: Argash (a.k.a. SckNt)
    E-mail: Argash@3dmail.com
    URL: www.geocities.com/area51/dungeon/6826/index.html
    ************************************************** **************************
    ***

  4. #4
    The Olesens
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    About Avatars and True Gody Form

    I think that avatars are only part of a god sent to do some mission.

    At Desimmar it appeared as if the old god's avatars were fighting but,
    insted, it was all thier energy dumped into the avatar form.

    However, in my mind, I kind of immagined the god being like clouds
    (Azari was a dark cloud) pushing against each other above the sky.
    Directly below them were thier Followes (Haelyn, etc.).
    This theory prevents the avatars from attacking the mortal heros (Azari
    vs. motal Haelyn. Azari is sure to win).

  5. #5
    argash
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    On Tuesday, June 30, 1998 7:50 PM
    Caleb Chitwood

    >So the answer that I'm giving is this... Jim, you're right about a few of
    >the gods not being around for the Cataclysm... that's why I didn't feel
    >very bad about Cuiraecen popping up, because, as far as I know he wasn't
    >there for the big oath that the "repalcement killers" took. But, I'm still
    >wondering how other people on this list feel about this. Also, I'd be
    >interested to know if anyone has evered figured out why avatar stats were
    >included when it would seem that avatars a few and far between?

    I think this is a simple question to answer but i may be wrong so correct me
    someone if i am. I can't seem to remember were excatly where the pact of the
    gods is talked about but as i recall they agreed to never to gather together
    in one place on the world in human form to wage war against one another.
    they are still free to roam the world however as they plaese so long as they
    do not try to gather togaether and wage war.

    Besides you know one of these days someones gonna break the vow (its already
    planned to happen in my campaign pss don't tell my players!!!!)

    ************************************************** **************************
    Name: Erik ellison
    Nickname: Argash (a.k.a. SckNt)
    E-mail: Argash@3dmail.com
    URL: www.geocities.com/area51/dungeon/6826/index.html
    ************************************************** **************************

  6. #6
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    Just on the topic of "the big oath" I think (in my humble opinion) that
    what this oath is meant to do is stop the Gods from manifesting themselves
    in their true forms on Cerilia, meaning that ll the gods NATIVE PLANE must
    be one other than the Prime Material. This doesn't preven Gods from
    appearing to followers in Avatar form, in dreams, burning bushes, etc,
    but it does prevent them from physically manifesting themselves in all
    their godly glory to lead their followers against each other. Supposing
    that Azrai is truly dead (a completely different thread :) ), the only way
    he could have dies is to have been native to the PM (same is true for the
    others). THis is what (I feel anyway) caused the devastation of the gods
    death folloing Deismaar...my 2 cents anyway.

    Sean

  7. #7
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Gods?!? Whaddya mean Gods -- we

    At 08:30 PM 6/30/98 -0400, Caleb wrote:
    >
    >This is something I've always thought about too. The rulebook seems to
    >contradict itself since it says that the Gods swore off appearing incarnate,
    >yet they still give stats for avatars. Now, I guess you could say that an
    >avatar isn't exactly the same thing as the god incarnate or something along
    >those lines, but that's always how I've defined avatar. When the gods
    >battled at Diesmaar, I assumed that it was their avatars that were doing the
    >battling. Now, I've heard it said on this mailing list that the gods
    >absolutely do not ever appear to anything on Cerilia. I must admit that
    >I've bent this rule a little bit and Cuiraecen's avatar has shown up in my
    >campaingn on at least one occasion I can remember. So I guess what I'm
    >doing w/ this post is giving my response to a few of the questions raised by
    >Jim Cooper and raising a few of my own.
    >So the answer that I'm giving is this... Jim, you're right about a few of
    >the gods not being around for the Cataclysm... that's why I didn't feel
    >very bad about Cuiraecen popping up, because, as far as I know he wasn't
    >there for the big oath that the "repalcement killers" took. But, I'm still
    >wondering how other people on this list feel about this. Also, I'd be
    >interested to know if anyone has evered figured out why avatar stats were
    >included when it would seem that avatars a few and far between?
    I always figured it was a) a bureaucratic thing, they give stats for all the
    other gods' avatars, in all the other worlds, so they felt they had to give
    them here as well. b) It may well be that they only swore off full
    incarnation, which is different from avatar form, because all the avatars
    listed, working together don't really have the power to accomplish
    destruction on a Deismaar scale in such a short period of time.

    Anyway,
    >just my two cents concerning this topic.. I'm sure I'll find some more spare
    >change in the future, too : )
    >
    >Caleb
    >
    >************************************************* **************************
    >>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

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