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  1. #1
    TheMotive@aol.co
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    In a message dated 98-06-29 18:06:01 EDT, someone wrote:

    >

    I beg to differ. The elves *still* don't have a fighting chance--even if the
    gods don't "directly manifest" themselves. Think about it, the elves don't
    have clerics, hence, they can't resurrect their dead, they can't heal their
    wounded, nor can they create food and water for their troops.

    Granted, they have wizardly magic, but wizard magic can only go so far. It's
    my belief that wizardly magic is more powerful than clerical magic, but you
    *can't* tell me that "cure _insert_severity_ wounds" isn't the best thing to
    have when the general of the Elven 3rd Infantry is down for the count.

    Second, the humans *still* have the population advantage. Even if you took the
    three largest and most powerful countries in Anuire *alone*, you could still
    probably stop an elven invasion from the Seilwode and Tuarhievel.

    Think about it: the humans consider this land as much "theirs" as the elves
    do, just like Americans consider the United States as much "theirs" as the
    Native Americans do. Humanity would fight. All it would take is three or four
    rousing speeches, and they would press *through* the forests and the jungles.
    Sure, a lot would die from elven ambushes. But that would give them even
    *more* reason to press ever onward, burning elven towers and destroying elven
    civilization.

    And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
    The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
    dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
    just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.

    - - The Motive

  2. #2
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    In a message dated 98-06-30 07:58:34 EDT, you write:

    > And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
    > The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have
    a
    > dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
    > just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves
    can't.
    >
    >
    Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
    elves could starve them to death.

    - -DKE

  3. #3
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    At 07:55 AM 6/30/98 -0400, The Motive wrote:
    >In a message dated 98-06-29 18:06:01 EDT, someone wrote:
    >
    >manifestation off limits to prevent another Deismaar, the elves have a
    >fighting chance. >>
    >
    >I beg to differ. The elves *still* don't have a fighting chance--even if the
    >gods don't "directly manifest" themselves. Think about it, the elves don't
    >have clerics, hence, they can't resurrect their dead, they can't heal their
    >wounded, nor can they create food and water for their troops.
    >
    If you need clerics to create food and water for your army, you have a
    problem. Creating large amounts of food and water is impractical.
    Ressurecting the dead is also impractical, how many clerics can cast raise
    dead, let alone ressurection (although animating the dead is another
    possibility, although frowned upon by most religions). And healing isn't
    that much better than say a competent battle surgeon, unless you have a
    really large number of clerics. Remember, elves don't get gangrene, or
    other infections (immune to disease)

    >Granted, they have wizardly magic, but wizard magic can only go so far. It's
    >my belief that wizardly magic is more powerful than clerical magic, but you
    >*can't* tell me that "cure _insert_severity_ wounds" isn't the best thing to
    >have when the general of the Elven 3rd Infantry is down for the count.
    >
    Yes, the cure wounds spells are very nice. But if you really need to, a
    limited wish will do the job. And wizards do a very impressive job of
    causing mass destruction among the enemy, which usually results in a rout
    and pursuit.
    >
    >Second, the humans *still* have the population advantage. Even if you took the
    >three largest and most powerful countries in Anuire *alone*, you could still
    >probably stop an elven invasion from the Seilwode and Tuarhievel.
    >
    >Think about it: the humans consider this land as much "theirs" as the elves
    >do, just like Americans consider the United States as much "theirs" as the
    >Native Americans do. Humanity would fight. All it would take is three or four
    >rousing speeches, and they would press *through* the forests and the jungles.
    >Sure, a lot would die from elven ambushes. But that would give them even
    >*more* reason to press ever onward, burning elven towers and destroying elven
    >civilization.
    >
    >And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
    >The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
    >dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
    >just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.
    >
    Yes, humanity has a population advantage, and yes, humanity would fight.
    However, the elves have an advantage in terms of magic. Which side would
    win? I don't know, it would likely depend on my players action. Yes, put
    your players at the center of the action, that is what they're playing
    Birthright for.



    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  4. #4
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    >Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
    >elves could starve them to death.
    >
    Um...I belive there are human mages who could offset this...? Or do they
    have no power over elves because of their innate inferiority to elven
    "absolutely true" magic?

  5. #5
    Andreas Kjeldsen
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    > And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
    > The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
    > dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
    > just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.

    Hmm. Can they? And would it be enough?

    To demonstrate my point, let's assume one of the Anuirean nations
    wanted to do that. We'll need a large, evil-aligned (preferably),
    militaristic realm. Let's take Ghoere.

    If Ghoere wanted to invade the Sielwode and burn it to the ground,
    they could do it, sure. However, in order to get there, they would
    have to cross enemy ground, i.e. Elinie. They could pay their way out
    of that, but it would be expensive.

    Now, imagine you are the Ghoeran general. Your army stands before the
    ancient trees of the Sielwode. You give the order to move forward.
    The first soldiers enter the forest....and are shot down by hidden
    archers. You dispatch units to find and kill the archers while the
    main army press on trying to find an enemy army or city. None of the
    units return.

    Your army move further into the forest. On their way, arrows appear
    out of the air, scouts disappear without a trace and elven raiders
    ambush you all the time. Some units turn down clear paths, only to
    find themselves surrounded by poisonous bushes.

    Your priests are working round the clock to heal the wounded, remove
    poisons and controlling the weather, which has been strangely bad
    ever since you entered. You have a feeling the army is being watched
    all the time, perhaps even infiltrated, but you can't find any enemy
    scouts or spies.

    After a few months, half your army is dead or wounded. Then a
    half-dead messenger from Ghoere catches up with you. Osoerde has
    seized the moment and declared war, since most of the army was away.
    The Baron orders you to return to defend the realm. You return to the
    border, only to find an impregnable mist blocking your way.

    How would you feel?

    Still don't think the elves have a chance?

    Andreas Kjeldsen
    morkitar@dadlnet.dk
    ICQ# 12703652

    -

  6. #6
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    In a message dated 98-06-30 13:39:34 EDT, you write:

    > >Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
    > >elves could starve them to death.
    > >
    > Um...I belive there are human mages who could offset this...? Or do they
    > have no power over elves because of their innate inferiority to elven
    > "absolutely true" magic?
    >
    Your scenario included NO priests or mages. It only included a unit of people
    burning and 10 units of infantry. If you read Warding you'll notice that even
    if they did have a mage or priest they'd have to have the "right spells" and
    then only have a 50% chance of navigating it. Now, unless you find a way to
    tie together 2,200 people and lead them blindly through a Warded forest
    without losing anybody and make that 50% roll, you're toast.

    I'm firmly of the belief that Warding is the most evil spell in the game. You
    had d**n well have priest or wizard holding there to cast a Dispel Realm Magic
    or you've just made a fatal booboo.

    - -DKEvermore

  7. #7
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    > >Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
    > >elves could starve them to death.
    > >
    > Um...I belive there are human mages who could offset this...? Or do they
    > have no power over elves because of their innate inferiority to elven
    > "absolutely true" magic?

    No, but if the elf has all the sources in that area, the human is outta
    luck, no matter how powerful he/she is..he'she can't even establish a
    level 0 cause once the warding is up, they can't get in to make the new
    source...

    Sean

  8. #8
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    Pieter A de Jong wrote:

    > >And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
    > >The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
    > >dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
    > >just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.
    > >
    > Yes, humanity has a population advantage, and yes, humanity would fight.
    > However, the elves have an advantage in terms of magic. Which side would
    > win? I don't know, it would likely depend on my players action. Yes, put
    > your players at the center of the action, that is what they're playing
    > Birthright for.

    There's been a lot of talk about this subject. I can't resist commenting....

    I think I'd rather be on the side of the most population in this situation. Part
    of the problem here is that the Elven Liberation Faction (the ELFs) is seeing
    things in terms of relative power on a 1:1 basis. The Humans Over All Races
    Dominating the Earth (HORDEs) see population as being a more important factor, and
    I'm going to have to agree with them.

    That elves are doomed seems as inevitable as their decline has been. Oh, I don't
    think it will be as flashy and dramatic as some folks seem to be implying. The
    human "advantage" of priestly magic is not really that significant, nor is the
    relative power of their military units. It's just a matter of migratory
    processes. If you were going to compare elves to just about any aboriginal people
    in the real world. Elves are going to lose in the long run. It's just a matter of
    time. The question is how much time?

    A very, very long time.... Elves are pretty strong in their forested domains, and
    they can stay in them for a good while. It takes much less time to chop down a
    tree than it does for one to grow, however, so the deforestation of elven lands is
    pretty inevitable. But chopping down trees is a pretty slow process too if you
    don't have access to bulldozers and earth moving equipment.

    The slow decline of the elves has been going on for thousands of years. It's going
    to take thousands more for them to collapse. Even when they do, it's unlikely that
    they would disappear entirely. Small enclaves of elves would still exist. For the
    most part they would be powerless (from a political point of view) and hidden away,
    but they'd still be out there. Maybe in dozen millenia there would be one lonely
    elf wandering around like the Last of the Mohicans, but there's no need to go there
    at this point.

    - -Gary

  9. #9
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    One last note on the decline of elves. The most important, telling, significant,
    ultimate proof that elves are in decline. Ready? Here it is:

    They're written that way.

    Elves are almost ALWAYS in decline. Aside from being long lived, blondish, skinny and
    musical, they're inevitably also on the way out. It's Tolkien, baby, there's just no
    fightin' it. If you have a world with elves that are slowly dominating the planet,
    then there is something inherently wrong with it. It's unnatural. What's next? A
    breed of six foot halflings? (Not stouts, not tallfellows... we'll call them
    ganglies.) Innocent orcs? Dwarven teetotalers? Maybe we should just have tapioca
    breathing dragons or make the Gorgon a surrogate mother?

    - -Gary

  10. #10
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    The elves shall *rise* again! [

    >No, but if the elf has all the sources in that area, the human is outta
    >luck, no matter how powerful he/she is..he'she can't even establish a
    >level 0 cause once the warding is up, they can't get in to make the new
    >source...
    >
    sure he can...he's a wizard. Wizards have a decent shot of penetrating the
    mists of a Warding spell. But yes, 1100 dudes running into an elven forest
    are dead, dead, dead. Any which way you slice it, they will lose to even a
    fourth of their number of elves in the woods.

    - -Clay

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