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  1. #1
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    At 03:19 PM 6/29/98 -0500, Clayton F. Hinton wrote:
    >>I oppose
    >>this point of view, I say that elven wizards can match human priests and
    >>wizards/magicians combined.
    >
    >Ok, this is not a flame for the author of this questionable statement, but
    >for a wide assortment of BR fans:
    >
    >Where do all you elf-lovers get off thinking the elves stand a chance in
    >hell of re-taking their ancestral lands? I've read a lot of BR material
    >just like you all, and I just don't see it coming. They don't breed fast
    >enough to populate such a vast area or fight such a long war. Period.
    >
    >The best they can do is be a sideshow until a new Emperor is found in
    >Anuire, or another human realm (Kninasi?) gets its act together and becomes
    >the dominating force on the Continent again. Or, to put it simply:
    >"Cerilia is a broad, rich continent home to dozens of races, but humans are
    >BY FAR the dominant race"(emphasis added)(Atlas of Cerilia, p. 12).
    >
    >And no, the elven wizards could not stand up to the human clerics alone,
    >let alone the human clerics AND wizards!. There are just too many clerics.
    >
    Look, Clayton, I wrote that statement and there are reasons why. I don't if
    you play or DM. I do both. As a DM, I don't want my players to look at the
    elven domains and go "MMM, Fresh Meat". This is exactly what happens if the
    elves don't at least match the humans in terms of magical firepower. The
    elves have smaller armies (lower population), lower incomes (lower province
    sizes, minimal guilds, no temples), and no generally have no firm allies
    within supporting distance, the forests being isolated "reservations" (as
    you put it) inside a sea of human domains.

    From a players point of view, I don't believe that being of one of the
    recommended PC races should inherently put the PC at an unbalanced
    disadvantage to the other PC's and NPC's. In other words, because the elves
    have inherited prejudices against them in terms of diplomacy, they get
    magical superiority as a balance.

    Finally, as to the elves being a complete write off as a race, I don't think
    so. Since recovering from Deismaar, the elves have only lost provinces to
    awnsheglien. Before Diesmaar, I have stated before and will state again
    that the human gods directly manifested avatars to allow the humans to come
    close to winning that war. This is why the elves turned to Azrai
    temporarily, as they needed an extra-planar power of their own to meet the
    human gods. Given that the Cerilian pantheon has now declared direct
    manifestation off limits to prevent another Deismaar, the elves have a
    fighting chance.

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  2. #2
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    >Look, Clayton, I wrote that statement and there are reasons why. I don't if
    >you play or DM. I do both. As a DM, I don't want my players to look at the
    >elven domains and go "MMM, Fresh Meat". This is exactly what happens if the
    >elves don't at least match the humans in terms of magical firepower. The
    >elves have smaller armies (lower population), lower incomes (lower province
    >sizes, minimal guilds, no temples), and no generally have no firm allies
    >within supporting distance, the forests being isolated "reservations" (as
    >you put it) inside a sea of human domains.

    nay, I never put it that way m'lord. Besides, elves should get first-rate
    elven troops instead of 'elven levies' to symbolize their better
    preparation and readiness for defending their homelands.

    >
    >>From a players point of view, I don't believe that being of one of the
    >recommended PC races should inherently put the PC at an unbalanced
    >disadvantage to the other PC's and NPC's. In other words, because the elves
    >have inherited prejudices against them in terms of diplomacy, they get
    >magical superiority as a balance.

    That is already a part of the game. But numerically, they just don't have
    the numbers to make useful gains against the humanzes. Particularly
    because they have no clerics.

    >
    >Finally, as to the elves being a complete write off as a race, I don't think
    >so.

    neither do I, but their will never be the Dominant force in Cerilia...will
    they? That's all I'm saying.

    > Since recovering from Deismaar, the elves have only lost provinces to
    >awnsheglien.

    I'll give you 3 reasons why that is true:
    1) Truce w/ humans.
    2) Truce w/ humans.
    3) Truce w/ humans.

    >Before Diesmaar, I have stated before and will state again
    >that the human gods directly manifested avatars to allow the humans to come
    >close to winning that war.

    um...the manifestations of the gods only happend at rare times, mainly at
    Deismar. It was the clerics who turned the tide against the elves when it
    was simply "humanzess vs. Elfs," not manifestations of the gods.

    >This is why the elves turned to Azrai
    >temporarily, as they needed an extra-planar power of their own to meet the
    >human gods.

    I'll agree with that statement. They did need something "extra" to fight
    on even ground. They were losing. A few daemons, some orogs, goblins, and
    undead can't hurt! Or can they...?

    >Given that the Cerilian pantheon has now declared direct
    >manifestation off limits to prevent another Deismaar, the elves have a
    >fighting chance.

    A fighting chance to...re-take Anuire? Ha!!!

    Oh, and any PC regent who thinks he can whack an elf domain is nuts. It
    would take a re-united Empire to push the elves back any more than they
    have already retreated. Does that spark a sentiment of agreement, at least?

    - -Clay

  3. #3
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    > And no, the elven wizards could not stand up to the human clerics alone,
    > let alone the human clerics AND wizards!. There are just too many
    clerics.

    They (the pointy ears) have 2 distinct advantages here.

    1) Multi-Classing. And 0-level elven soldiers don't call for much here
    since the balance being used is magic, magic requires classed and leveled
    characters. Any elven fighter in chain mail out there could be a wizard
    too.

    2) They don't require the Blood to cast True Magic. How many elves can
    get out there to cast 1 single fireball? How about "rain of magic
    missiles"

    Okay, so the clerics threw the balance the first time (this I don't really
    understand - clerics don't have a helluvalot of battle magic available to
    them.... healing certainly counts for something, but how much?)

    Something more to point out -

    Human Apathy. I am assuming that the vast majority of human kingdoms share
    this trait, and the belief that the elves are just too weak to take back
    what they've lost. Superior numbers does not guarantee victory, what does
    is superior tactics and strategy. I think a general that saw Deismaar
    would have a pretty penny more experience in the ways of battle that the
    son of a nobleman in Diemed. The same general who saw his proud elvish
    knights die as victims of human priests has had 1500 years to formulate
    strategies of how best to neutralize that menace. I know if I planned to
    take revenge I'd work on that little problem. And if numbers win the fight
    - - how come did the elves hold out so long against the goblins? I'd say
    they breed allot faster than humans - and they have clerics too, shamans
    actually. So they don't breed fast - but to an immortal, well, maybe its
    just time to call of this little truce.

    Now, the humans could very well believe that the elves are neutered, not to
    mention that they are opportunists. What regent, who truly believes that
    the elves are really incapable of taking the fight back to the humans,
    would send forces to aid his life long enemy?

    Oh well.

    And the debate shall rage onward.

    l8r all
    Tim

  4. #4
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    In a message dated 98-06-29 17:21:29 EDT, you write:

    > Finally, as to the elves being a complete write off as a race, I don't
    think
    > so. Since recovering from Deismaar, the elves have only lost provinces to
    > awnsheglien. Before Diesmaar, I have stated before and will state again
    > that the human gods directly manifested avatars to allow the humans to come
    > close to winning that war. This is why the elves turned to Azrai
    > temporarily, as they needed an extra-planar power of their own to meet the
    > human gods. Given that the Cerilian pantheon has now declared direct
    > manifestation off limits to prevent another Deismaar, the elves have a
    > fighting chance.
    >

  5. #5
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    At 04:57 PM 6/29/98 -0500, Clayton wrote:
    >

    >
    >nay, I never put it that way m'lord. Besides, elves should get first-rate
    >elven troops instead of 'elven levies' to symbolize their better
    >preparation and readiness for defending their homelands.
    >
    Take a look at the war cards. The elven units are no better than anybody
    else's. They also cost more to muster.
    >>
    >>>From a players point of view, I don't believe that being of one of the
    >>recommended PC races should inherently put the PC at an unbalanced
    >>disadvantage to the other PC's and NPC's. In other words, because the elves
    >>have inherited prejudices against them in terms of diplomacy, they get
    >>magical superiority as a balance.
    >
    >That is already a part of the game. But numerically, they just don't have
    >the numbers to make useful gains against the humanzes. Particularly
    >because they have no clerics.
    >
    The original thread of this argument was that Randax said the elves didn't
    have that magical superiority. I have been arguing that the elves should
    have such an edge. As far as numbers go, I haven't seen an official
    modification to the rules regarding the rule province action giving
    penalties by race, although it has been proposed on this list.
    >>
    >>Finally, as to the elves being a complete write off as a race, I don't think
    >>so.
    >
    >neither do I, but their will never be the Dominant force in Cerilia...will
    >they? That's all I'm saying.
    >
    Really depends what happens in your campaign. For example if your DM wants
    to restart the human-elven wars, he'd better set up the elves as at least a
    serious threat, not something to be laughed at. Or if he wants to creative
    he could run a group of all-elven PC's, establishing an elven league of
    nations and fighting to kick the humans (and everybody else) off of Cerilia.
    >> Since recovering from Deismaar, the elves have only lost provinces to
    >>awnsheglien.
    >
    >I'll give you 3 reasons why that is true:
    >1) Truce w/ humans.
    >2) Truce w/ humans.
    >3) Truce w/ humans.
    WHAT TRUCE? There is one elven realm with semi-open borders and peaceful
    contact with the humans, Tuarhievel. Even there, the Gheallie Sidhe still
    roams. Every other nation kills nearly every human to get near their
    borders. Not to mention that the same Gheallie Sidhe fanatics continue to
    launch raids across borders.



    >>Before Diesmaar, I have stated before and will state again
    >>that the human gods directly manifested avatars to allow the humans to come
    >>close to winning that war.
    >
    >um...the manifestations of the gods only happend at rare times, mainly at
    >Deismar. It was the clerics who turned the tide against the elves when it
    >was simply "humanzess vs. Elfs," not manifestations of the gods.
    >
    The humans were fighting a war against an elven civilization that was at
    *least* 5000 years old, and dominated a large portion of Cerilia. The elves
    had a much higher population than they did now, as forests covered what are
    now the plains of Anuire. Can you say a minimum of 100 or more 30th level or
    higher elven mages (see elven immortality), with appropriate numbers of
    apprentices and subordinates. Exactly what are some less than 15th level
    priests going to do to that (remember, *no* human mages, and life extension
    is very uncommon in a birthright setting, ie high level humans die of old
    age). I cannot see the humans winning this war without someone or something
    stopping the power of the elven mages. Human clerics are not going to be up
    to the job. Direct divine intervention would do it, but not much else. A
    Solar vs a 30th+ level wizard is a 50-50 fight.

    >>This is why the elves turned to Azrai
    >>temporarily, as they needed an extra-planar power of their own to meet the
    >>human gods.
    >
    >I'll agree with that statement. They did need something "extra" to fight
    >on even ground. They were losing. A few daemons, some orogs, goblins, and
    >undead can't hurt! Or can they...?
    >
    >>Given that the Cerilian pantheon has now declared direct
    >>manifestation off limits to prevent another Deismaar, the elves have a
    >>fighting chance.
    >
    >A fighting chance to...re-take Anuire? Ha!!!
    >
    You think all those wizards died? Wizards that good are *hard* to kill.
    Also, the elves have been growing a new crop in the 2000 years since
    Deismaar. The elves may be in a position to make another push. Also note,
    this time the human races (Khinasi, brecht, etc) are not united. Hell, the
    individual kingdoms aren't united. Divide and Conquer, anyone?
    >Oh, and any PC regent who thinks he can whack an elf domain is nuts. It
    >would take a re-united Empire to push the elves back any more than they
    >have already retreated. Does that spark a sentiment of agreement, at least?
    >
    Yep, that I'll agree with. Hell, it might take more than that to push them
    back.
    >-Clay
    >************************************************* **************************
    >>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  6. #6
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    Now, individual human nations
    >could not wipe out the remaining elves, nor would they in most cases (they
    >need the buffers against the Awnshegh (relative) super powers). Thus, from a
    >GMing point of view humans are NOT superior to elves.

    Actually (and from a DM viewpoint), I believe an individual elf is,
    everything else being equal, superior in many respects to a human. Racial
    abilities, long life (immortal? hah!), ability to use 'true' magic
    regardless of bloodline, etc. But on the whole, there just aren't enough
    of them to say the two races are "equal" in total power. Humans are the
    predominant race in Cerilia.

    - -Clay

  7. #7
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    At 10:36 AM 6/30/98 -0600, you wrote:
    >At 04:57 PM 6/29/98 -0500, Clayton wrote:
    >>
    >
    >>
    >>nay, I never put it that way m'lord. Besides, elves should get first-rate
    >>elven troops instead of 'elven levies' to symbolize their better
    >>preparation and readiness for defending their homelands.
    >>
    >Take a look at the war cards. The elven units are no better than anybody
    >else's. They also cost more to muster.

    But they should have a higher percentage of war-ready people, so their
    militia should be 'regulars' and still be free in time of need. At least,
    that is my understanding of the elves in general.

    >>
    >The original thread of this argument was that Randax said the elves didn't
    >have that magical superiority. I have been arguing that the elves should
    >have such an edge. As far as numbers go, I haven't seen an official
    >modification to the rules regarding the rule province action giving
    >penalties by race, although it has been proposed on this list.

    I'm not talking about the BR rules alone, I'm talking about the BR World as
    written in the official histories. Besides, a common house rule limits
    the amount of increases in population elves and dwarves can handle.

    >>
    >Really depends what happens in your campaign. For example if your DM wants
    >to restart the human-elven wars, he'd better set up the elves as at least a
    >serious threat, not something to be laughed at. Or if he wants to creative
    >he could run a group of all-elven PC's, establishing an elven league of
    >nations and fighting to kick the humans (and everybody else) off of Cerilia.

    Agreed. If a DM wants to use the elves as a serious threat, they DO need
    help. I always thought the main purpose of a classic BR campaign was to
    try to bring the old Anuirian Empire together...call me old fashioned.

    >WHAT TRUCE? There is one elven realm with semi-open borders and peaceful
    >contact with the humans, Tuarhievel. Even there, the Gheallie Sidhe still
    >roams. Every other nation kills nearly every human to get near their
    >borders. Not to mention that the same Gheallie Sidhe fanatics continue to
    >launch raids across borders.

    Truce. As in, no more total war. After Deismar, you know, the truce?
    Raids are certainly not a good thing for "peace," but it's a hundred times
    better than it was before Deismar, isn't it?


    >
    >

    >The humans were fighting a war against an elven civilization that was at
    >*least* 5000 years old, and dominated a large portion of Cerilia. The elves
    >had a much higher population than they did now, as forests covered what are
    >now the plains of Anuire. Can you say a minimum of 100 or more 30th level or
    >higher elven mages (see elven immortality), with appropriate numbers of
    >apprentices and subordinates. Exactly what are some less than 15th level
    >priests going to do to that (remember, *no* human mages, and life extension
    >is very uncommon in a birthright setting, ie high level humans die of old
    >age). I cannot see the humans winning this war without someone or something
    >stopping the power of the elven mages. Human clerics are not going to be up
    >to the job. Direct divine intervention would do it, but not much else. A
    >Solar vs a 30th+ level wizard is a 50-50 fight.

    30th level mages? Where is that written? What normal elf would ever want
    to spend his whole life practicing powerful magic instead of frolicking in
    the woods and enjoying himself, in a time of peace? Your assumptions are
    not matched in the (short) history of BR. I'm not sure about the other
    stuff (no human wizards?), but I still remember reading somewhere that the
    gods never appeared before Deismar, at least not in large numbers.

    >>
    >>A fighting chance to...re-take Anuire? Ha!!!
    >>
    >You think all those wizards died? Wizards that good are *hard* to kill.
    >Also, the elves have been growing a new crop in the 2000 years since
    >Deismaar. The elves may be in a position to make another push. Also note,
    >this time the human races (Khinasi, brecht, etc) are not united. Hell, the
    >individual kingdoms aren't united. Divide and Conquer, anyone?

    What wizard? You mean your invisible 30th level ones? Ok, I'll give in.
    If the Elves actually have 50 30th level wizards on their side, they can do
    it. Um...but they don't.

    >>Oh, and any PC regent who thinks he can whack an elf domain is nuts. It
    >>would take a re-united Empire to push the elves back any more than they
    >>have already retreated. Does that spark a sentiment of agreement, at
    least?
    >>
    >Yep, that I'll agree with. Hell, it might take more than that to push them
    >back.

    Yes it would, if they had that much magical firepower. But they don't.
    The Birthright AD&D setting is known for several things in comparison to
    high-magic worlds like Forgotten Realms. One of those things is low
    average levels. A bunch of 30th+ level anythings would tip the balance in
    an extreme way in such a world.

  8. #8
    Trizt
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    On 29-Jun-98, Clayton F. Hinton (chinton@mail.utexas.edu) wrote about Re:
    [BIRTHRIGHT] - the Elves are gonna Rise Again!!! (not):

    - ->That is already a part of the game. But numerically, they just don't have
    - ->the numbers to make useful gains against the humanzes. Particularly
    - ->because they have no clerics.

    Mage spell can affect many more creatures than a healing spell, so the higher
    number of human priest than elven magec makes the both groups equal to each
    other. The elven motivation does make the elves more "equal" to the high
    numbered humans. We could take a look at the Finnish-Russian "Continual War"
    (1940-1944), the Finns where much more motivated to fight and reclame their
    homeland than the Russians where to defend their homeland, even if they where
    upto 3.750.000 soldiers against the Finns 700.000. In 1942 Finnish troops hold
    the areal which was twice the size of todays Finland. It was first when the
    Russian troops numbered 6.000.000+ soldiers that the Russian could press back
    the Finns.
    Oki, only motivation don't make someone 5times better than someone else, a bit
    of good tactics is needed too, but motivation makes difference.

    - ->> Since recovering from Deismaar, the elves have only lost provinces to
    - ->>awnsheglien.
    - ->I'll give you 3 reasons why that is true:
    - ->1) Truce w/ humans.
    - ->2) Truce w/ humans.
    - ->3) Truce w/ humans.
    Hmmm.... so the "rjuvik" elves are in a truce with the humans?

    - ->um...the manifestations of the gods only happend at rare times, mainly at
    - ->Deismar. It was the clerics who turned the tide against the elves when it
    - ->was simply "humanzess vs. Elfs," not manifestations of the gods.
    If we take a look at the Elven mage with one Fireball, cast into a storming
    unit, could damage around 30 soldiers, that would requer that you had 30 1st
    level priests or 10-5 "high" level priests to make those soldiers fit for
    fight again (yuppz, I know that elves in BR don't like to use fireballs, but
    in war you have to reconsider things). Otherwise the both classes are quite
    similare to what they are capable to do, so if it had been only a Priest vs.
    Mage matter, then there had been an advantige for the Mage (A priest who has
    to heal people can't join the battle and therefore you can't count the better
    fighting skill for priests). So the manifestation of the human gods, which
    seems to have been quite common, made the difference.

    - ->A fighting chance to...re-take Anuire? Ha!!!
    Anuire is only a small piece of Cerilia, most none Anuireans wouldn't care
    what would happen in Anuire. The Rjuriks would raid costal settlements,
    Breshtur would sell passages to otherplaces for high costs.



    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

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    IP : ukko.dyn.ml.org
    --------------------

  9. #9
    Trizt
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    On 29-Jun-98, Clayton F. Hinton (chinton@mail.utexas.edu) wrote about
    [BIRTHRIGHT] - the Elves are gonna Rise Again!!! (not):
    - ->>I oppose
    - ->>this point of view, I say that elven wizards can match human priests and
    - ->>wizards/magicians combined.

    - ->Ok, this is not a flame for the author of this questionable statement, but
    - ->for a wide assortment of BR fans:

    - ->Where do all you elf-lovers get off thinking the elves stand a chance in
    - ->hell of re-taking their ancestral lands? I've read a lot of BR material
    - ->just like you all, and I just don't see it coming. They don't breed fast
    - ->enough to populate such a vast area or fight such a long war. Period.

    I can agree that elves aren't all mighty, but they have some advantiges over
    humans.

    1. Humans make war whit eachothers (weekens them selves)

    2. Magical source is mainly in hands of elves

    3. Elves has in general a higher techlevel than humans (better weapons)

    4. Elves are much more well motivated than humans

    5. Polymorph Other

    The first reason is the main advantige, the last one is a last resort to
    increase the size of the army.


    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    --------------------
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    ICQ# : 13696780 URL2: http://www.ukko.dyn.ml.org/~trizt/
    Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel: #Opers
    MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
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    IP : ukko.dyn.ml.org
    --------------------

  10. #10
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    the Elves are gonna Rise Again!

    At 12:47 PM 6/30/98 -0500, Clayton wrote:

    >>>
    >>>nay, I never put it that way m'lord. Besides, elves should get first-rate
    >>>elven troops instead of 'elven levies' to symbolize their better
    >>>preparation and readiness for defending their homelands.
    >>>
    >>Take a look at the war cards. The elven units are no better than anybody
    >>else's. They also cost more to muster.
    >
    >But they should have a higher percentage of war-ready people, so their
    >militia should be 'regulars' and still be free in time of need. At least,
    >that is my understanding of the elves in general.
    >
    You argue with me that elves spend to much time frolicking in the woods to
    become great mages. Now you tell me that their population spends enough
    time practicing warfare for their militia to count as regular units. The gap
    between a unit of professionals and unit of militia is rather large. Your
    saying that the elven people in general have enough organization to be
    running military practices 8-12 hours a week, including large unit maneuvers?

    >>>
    >>The original thread of this argument was that Randax said the elves didn't
    >>have that magical superiority. I have been arguing that the elves should
    >>have such an edge. As far as numbers go, I haven't seen an official
    >>modification to the rules regarding the rule province action giving
    >>penalties by race, although it has been proposed on this list.
    >
    >I'm not talking about the BR rules alone, I'm talking about the BR World as
    >written in the official histories. Besides, a common house rule limits
    >the amount of increases in population elves and dwarves can handle.
    >
    All right, that is a reasonable rule. Although if your going to give the
    elves and dwarves penalties, you might want to give goblin realms bonuses.

    >>>
    >>Really depends what happens in your campaign. For example if your DM wants
    >>to restart the human-elven wars, he'd better set up the elves as at least a
    >>serious threat, not something to be laughed at. Or if he wants to creative
    >>he could run a group of all-elven PC's, establishing an elven league of
    >>nations and fighting to kick the humans (and everybody else) off of Cerilia.
    >
    >Agreed. If a DM wants to use the elves as a serious threat, they DO need
    >help. I always thought the main purpose of a classic BR campaign was to
    >try to bring the old Anuirian Empire together...call me old fashioned.
    >
    >>WHAT TRUCE? There is one elven realm with semi-open borders and peaceful
    >>contact with the humans, Tuarhievel. Even there, the Gheallie Sidhe still
    >>roams. Every other nation kills nearly every human to get near their
    >>borders. Not to mention that the same Gheallie Sidhe fanatics continue to
    >>launch raids across borders.
    >
    >Truce. As in, no more total war. After Deismar, you know, the truce?
    >Raids are certainly not a good thing for "peace," but it's a hundred times
    >better than it was before Deismar, isn't it?
    >
    So your saying the humans got so bored taking easy land from the elves that
    they decided to fight each other instead and ignore the raids? Or do they
    not attack the elven nations sheltering these raiders because they'd get
    their ass kicked?
    >
    >>
    >>
    >
    >>The humans were fighting a war against an elven civilization that was at
    >>*least* 5000 years old, and dominated a large portion of Cerilia. The elves
    >>had a much higher population than they did now, as forests covered what are
    >>now the plains of Anuire. Can you say a minimum of 100 or more 30th level or
    >>higher elven mages (see elven immortality), with appropriate numbers of
    >>apprentices and subordinates. Exactly what are some less than 15th level
    >>priests going to do to that (remember, *no* human mages, and life extension
    >>is very uncommon in a birthright setting, ie high level humans die of old
    >>age). I cannot see the humans winning this war without someone or something
    >>stopping the power of the elven mages. Human clerics are not going to be up
    >>to the job. Direct divine intervention would do it, but not much else. A
    >>Solar vs a 30th+ level wizard is a 50-50 fight.
    >
    >30th level mages? Where is that written? What normal elf would ever want
    >to spend his whole life practicing powerful magic instead of frolicking in
    >the woods and enjoying himself, in a time of peace? Your assumptions are
    >not matched in the (short) history of BR.
    >
    This is not written anywhere, it a straight consequence of the large gaps in
    the history that has been written. Specifically, pre-Deismaar, the elves
    were civilized for at least 5000 years. This means that immortal elves
    don't die except from the occasional accident (fire), and warfare. Note
    that neither of these is to likely to kill even a medium level (5th+) mage.
    Therefore the majority of elves trained in magic are going to live up until
    the wars with humans. Do you think over a period of 5000 years, as long as
    human recorded history, some of them ?might? get good at wizardry. I mean
    even giving them an advancement rate 10 times slower than a human priest, if
    a human priest will reach a maximum of 15th level in a 100 year lifespan
    (very long for humans), it will only take an elf 1000 years to match this
    achievement. The aforementioned elf has another 4000 years to acquire
    another 15 levels. It should also be noted, as I posted previously, I do not
    buy the caricature of "elves are fuckups who never get around to doing
    anything important", and therefore do not feel that elves should advance
    slower than humans do.

    >I'm not sure about the other
    >stuff (no human wizards?), but I still remember reading somewhere that the
    >gods never appeared before Deismar, at least not in large numbers.
    >
    Before Deismaar, there were no bloodlines. Ergo, no human wizards,
    magicians maybe, but no human wizards.
    The only words regarding the appearance of gods in cerilia that I have read
    is that the new gods (post-Deismaar) made a pact not to ever materialize
    fully on Aebrynnis, to prevent any future Deismaar. This implies that no
    such pact was in existance before Deismaar.

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

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