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  1. #1
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    Fredrik Lundberg wrote:

    >

  2. #2
    Robert Harper
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    At 09:15 PM 6/25/98 -0700, you wrote:

    >I get your overall point, though. I would argue though that elves don't
    just have "long" lives. Their immortal. That's a big diff. The AD&D rules
    are pretty hazy on what it is that makes a 0-level person a 1st level one.
    Personally, I'm inclined to just setting it down to experience and training.
    That is, 0-level characters need to get a few hundred experience points,
    train to raise first level and viola! a leveled character. Aside from
    having to risk one's life to gain the experience, the big barrier would have
    to be the 1,000 GP or so that they would have to come up with to get trained.

    I have always used the same logic, that being "1st level" was a matter of
    meeting minimum stat requirements (not too difficult) and having training.
    The alternative is to assume all classed characters have in fact some
    "intangible" spark called "hero factor" and only those people have 'class'.

    For example, in my campaign all soldiers are F1's (but without
    specialization, that implies special training) once they get past being raw
    recruits.

    However, few characters ever make it to 2nd level, or want to. That is
    where the real break comes in my campaign. Not unclassed/classed, but 1st
    level and higher.

    Training costs are also a barrier, a few hundred gp being alot of money to
    anyone who isn't 'heroic'. Althought the 1000gp quoted is a bit high. The
    DMG (p.49) suggests 100gp/level/week with the number of weeks depending on
    the skill of instructor and student (6 or so weeks would be typical). I
    don't use the latter system (it calls for student Int/Wis checks to learn
    and I don't like a system which biases training time towards mages and
    priests; sure they're good at 'book learning' but I think Bud the Fighter
    should be able on average to learn how to be a 2nd level hackmaster in about
    the same time as Wiz the Mage learns to be a 2nd level master of arcane
    lore), I just roll 1d4 and multiply it by the PC's current level. This
    takes longer to train at higher levels but I desire that outcome (among
    other things it makes time pass and avoids 22 year old 9th level characters;
    don't know about other DM's but I've run lots of PC's who want to spend
    every waking moment adventuring and begrudge any day their character isn't
    doing so - even travel).

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    | |
    | We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
    | Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
    | |
    | Lucien LaCroix |
    |_________________________________________________ __________________|

  3. #3
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    > just have "long" lives. Their immortal. That's a big diff. The AD&D
    rules
    > are pretty hazy on what it is that makes a 0-level person a 1st level
    one.

    An older book, but still good, is the "Greyhawk Adventures" hardbound. It
    is one of those mysterious "compatible with 1st and 2nd edition" books, but
    the back end has rules on playing 0-level character.

    Essentially (don't have access to it right now) the 0-lvl character has a
    certain negative number of experience points. If I can get the book I'd be
    happy to post it, that is if anyone else is interested.

    l8r

    Tim

  4. #4
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    At 01:29 AM 6/28/98 -0700, Tim wrote:
    >
    >
    >An older book, but still good, is the "Greyhawk Adventures" hardbound. It
    >is one of those mysterious "compatible with 1st and 2nd edition" books, but
    >the back end has rules on playing 0-level character.
    >
    >Essentially (don't have access to it right now) the 0-lvl character has a
    >certain negative number of experience points. If I can get the book I'd be
    >happy to post it, that is if anyone else is interested.
    >
    >
    I have the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover. It does indeed have rules for 0
    level characters. I wasn't that impressed with them, but if I get enough
    requests I will enter them and post them to the list.

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  5. #5
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    > Argh! I wrote this really good reply to your post, Tim, and then my
    machine
    > crashed and I lost the whole thing.... Curse you, Bill Gates! Curse
    you!

    And lo, Satan has visited thy hard drive.... hehehe.

    > This brings to mind a possible solution to the problem with the low
    number of
    > leveled characters in certain populations, particularly long lived ones.
    If
    > you have immortal races running around, why wouldn't they collect enough
    XP to
    > reach 1st level sooner or later? Even an elven shut-in with agoraphobia
    would
    > eventually earn enough experience to go up to 1st level. There should be
    scads
    > of leveled fighters running around in elven lands dicing up human
    invaders.

    yup. How does the Ghallie Sidhe sound now? I've looked at every thing I
    can find on them and what I assemble is a large quantity of Sidhe fighters,
    mages, fighter/mages, and fighter/thieves, all with some levels and very
    long grudge meters running around killing little 4-6hp humans. Eventually
    those 20xp dudes add up.

    > The solution might be profession. That is, the reason there aren't a
    bunch of
    > leveled characters running around is that, well, there really is.
    They're just
    > not fighters, rangers, mages or thieves. They're winemakes, farmers,
    > carpenters, artists, beekeepers, etc. You know the rules in the DMG for
    making
    > up character classes? Table 12 has noted on it the possibility of being
    a
    > "0-level Human" that "never improve[s] in combat ability, regardless of
    > level." If we remove the word "Human" from that table we can easily put
    elves
    > in that position. So the solution is that they do have level, just not
    levels
    > particularly notable in D&D terms.

    > Of course, the problems with this solution are that professional
    character
    > classes would have pretty small XP modifiers, which means that it would
    > probably only take a few hundred XPs to go up in levels, and even if the
    class
    > had the smallest HD possible (d3) you could still get a bunch of NPCs
    running
    > around with more than normal HP for 0-level folks. They'd also go up in
    level
    > pretty quickly, so there might be hordes of 8th level basketweavers
    running
    > around pelting people with wicker goods....

    Mmm... for kicks a made up a "peasant" class, with no combat improvement,
    no HP improvement, just new proficinecies, and the sod was about 20th level
    by the time a fighter reached 4th.

    Actually, the new Skills & Powers has rules for more experience 0 levels.
    For the time they've been around and working they get bonus character
    points to buy proficiencies. So really that 0-level blacksmith who has 25
    cp to buy skills with now can really make some kick ass iron work.

    Tim

  6. #6
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    At 10:54 PM 7/2/98 +0200, you wrote:
    >>The whole of the original post disputed that the elves had access to realm
    >>magic in pre-Deismaar times and therefore because humans have a god of
    >>magic, humans should have more advanced realm magic. I dispute this view
    >>because I believe that the elves had realm magic before Deismaar. As only
    >>realm magic requires ley-lines, those two references imply that the elves
    >>had realm magic before Deismaar. Which also reinforces my theory that
    >>something extraordinary happened in the 1st Elven-Human war, as humans
    >>requires bloodlines to use either clerical or magical realm magic and
    >>therefore should not have had access to realm magic before Deismaar.
    >>

  7. #7
    veryfastperson@juno.com
    Guest

    SV: Long statistical analysis f

    >Making Ley Lines also requires regency and they according to those
    >passages
    >were definetely doing that as well.

    They weren't only making those leylines - they were actually USING them.
    that's the clincher there :)

    - -Erik

    >

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