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  1. #11
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    >->The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they get
    >->a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.
    >Maybe a Shadow-elf will stepp out from the Shadow world ;)
    >
    >
    That's no more likely than an heir to the Roele line suddenly appearing on
    the Iron Throne to re-unite Anuire. Sheesh, I just don't get the
    anti-human sentiment from you people. Humans are the center of activity in
    Anuire, because they are the most powerful group, even as a ruined empire.
    I'm simply amazed that some of you refuse to accept that fact.

    - -Clay
    chinton@mail.utexas.edu

  2. #12
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    >
    >As I did state in my previous mail, if Rhoube dies and no Elven realm
    starts a
    >"revenge war", humans will die as Avan and Aeric _WILL_ start a war against
    >eachother as soon as they hear that the Manhunter has died. The fight for the
    >throne of Anuire will depopulate most of the human lands.
    >
    So says you! I have a very had time believing that one; the folly of such
    a long, drawn-out war is obvious, particularly to experienced, savvy rulers
    like Boerine and Avanil. If neither of them had a clear advantage,
    fighting would be pretty dumb from a strategic standpoint. I just don't
    see Rhoubhe's death being a catalyst for such a war for the Iron Crown,
    involving most of Anuire. More like an excuse for unison of humans
    regardless of allegiances.

    - -Clay

  3. #13
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    > So says you! I have a very had time believing that one; the folly of such
    > a long, drawn-out war is obvious, particularly to experienced, savvy rulers
    > like Boerine and Avanil. If neither of them had a clear advantage,
    > fighting would be pretty dumb from a strategic standpoint. I just don't
    > see Rhoubhe's death being a catalyst for such a war for the Iron Crown,
    > involving most of Anuire. More like an excuse for unison of humans
    > regardless of allegiances.
    >
    Just to use a published example,l Boeruine's ancestor fought just such a
    war against Michael Roele, both of whom were "experienced, savvy rulers".
    SImply being a good ruler, doesn't in any way detract from the desire to
    have more power, in this case the Iron Throne. If either of these two
    superpowers see the fall of the Manslayer as a possibility for anysort of
    tactical advantage, I am sure they would pounce on it immediately.

    Sean

  4. #14
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    >Just to use a published example,l Boeruine's ancestor fought just such a
    >war against Michael Roele, both of whom were "experienced, savvy rulers".

    Um...were there any serious threats to the Empire at the time? The Gorgon
    was not about to invade, and you didn't have whisperings of another elven
    manhunt about to happen...did you? Besides, that had roots in a failed
    attempt to assassinate Micheal. Finally, you will have to admit that
    Micheal did a grande job of protecting the Empire while at the same time
    battling Boerine. He succeeded at both.

    >SImply being a good ruler, doesn't in any way detract from the desire to
    >have more power, in this case the Iron Throne.

    Desire, no. Foolhardiness, yes.

    If either of these two
    >superpowers see the fall of the Manslayer as a possibility for anysort of
    >tactical advantage, I am sure they would pounce on it immediately.
    >

    Not if they knew they would be destroyed regardless of the outcome. They
    would more likely fight in a limited fashion, playing cat and mouse,
    looking for a weakness that could be exploited enough for a final victory,
    and not weakening their realms so much that they were threatened by outside
    sources. People who have a lot to lose are usually fairly cautious in
    their strategy, even if they risk everything for even more power. What's
    the use of risking everything if what you can gain is...nothing?

    - -Clay

  5. #15
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    > Um...were there any serious threats to the Empire at the time? The Gorgon
    > was not about to invade, and you didn't have whisperings of another elven
    > manhunt about to happen...did you? Besides, that had roots in a failed
    > attempt to assassinate Micheal. Finally, you will have to admit that
    > Micheal did a grande job of protecting the Empire while at the same time
    > battling Boerine. He succeeded at both.

    Unless you count the rebellions occurring in Khinasi and the Brecht lands
    as not serious, I suppose..not to mention the fact there was not much of
    an empire at that point..many of the nations had decided to side with
    Boeurine, leaving Michael a minimal amout of support. he managed to
    gather most if it through military maneuvering..and actually, he didn't
    protect anything..there was a stalemate for years, until Boeurine made a
    foolish move..and yes, the elven manhunts were still going on, despite the
    assistance other elven nations were lending to the True Emperor. And yes,
    it did have roots in a failed attempt to assisanate Michael, however,
    Boeuring chose to follow a path that resulted in the deaths of untold
    thousands on both sides..
    >
    > Not if they knew they would be destroyed regardless of the outcome. They
    > would more likely fight in a limited fashion, playing cat and mouse,
    > looking for a weakness that could be exploited enough for a final victory,
    > and not weakening their realms so much that they were threatened by outside
    > sources. People who have a lot to lose are usually fairly cautious in
    > their strategy, even if they risk everything for even more power. What's
    > the use of risking everything if what you can gain is...nothing?
    >
    Actually, I'm quite sure the Michael would have stood his ground to the
    last man on either side to support his lawful claim to the throne..that
    just the kind of guy he was..not one to put Pride before a fall..And I
    truly doubt that outside realms would be able to stade idly by (or worse
    yet, try to make good for themselves in the meantime) because, should one
    of these two happen to come out on top with and real sort of forces left,
    they would undoubtedly be in a position to move for teh Throne. Their
    main opponent is dead, and (depending on the results of the war) their
    lands could even have fallen to the victoy. Should Avanil or Boeurine
    fall, their allies would have no option but to capitulate, leaveing the
    whole of the west securely in the hands of the victor..given even a
    minimal amount of time, they could defend their lands while building up
    internal structure. After that, the only real forces left are Mhoried and
    Ghoere, and we all know how friendly they are..that is assuming Ghoere
    didn;t look at the situation and try to put himself in the good grces of
    who he thought would be the winner...

    In any event, the presence of the Manslayer in the west is perhaps the
    only thing preventing these powers form declaring full fledged war on each
    other, and I (for one) think that his position is pretty much
    unassailable..a good warding spell can prevent anyone from harassing his
    lands should a threat befome too great...

    Sean

  6. #16
    Caleb Chitwood
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Clayton F. Hinton
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 4:37 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Whipping up on Rhoube


    >
    >>->The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they
    get
    >>->a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.
    >>Maybe a Shadow-elf will stepp out from the Shadow world ;)
    >>
    >>
    >That's no more likely than an heir to the Roele line suddenly appearing on
    >the Iron Throne to re-unite Anuire. Sheesh, I just don't get the
    >anti-human sentiment from you people. Humans are the center of activity in
    >Anuire, because they are the most powerful group, even as a ruined empire.
    >I'm simply amazed that some of you refuse to accept that fact.
    >
    I think that's the point that the author of the Shadow-elf post was trying
    to make. In your fit of self-righteousness, you failed to detect the
    sarcasm. Note the smile at the end of the post.

  7. #17
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    >Unless you count the rebellions occurring in Khinasi and the Brecht lands
    >as not serious, I suppose..

    Suppose away, then.

    not to mention the fact there was not much of
    >an empire at that point..many of the nations had decided to side with
    >Boeurine, leaving Michael a minimal amout of support. he managed to
    >gather most if it through military maneuvering..and actually, he didn't
    >protect anything..

    To my knowledge, Mike sent his army far and wide to take care of menaces,
    winning the respect and admiration of many rulers, and spreading fear of
    his power to less admirable rulers. All this while whipping up on Boerine.


    >Actually, I'm quite sure the Michael would have stood his ground to the
    >last man on either side to support his lawful claim to the throne..

    My original claim is that the current rulers of Avanila and Boerine are
    savvy politicians and capable strategists. Micheal Roele's adversary was a
    shrewd man as well, and he bid everything on his effort to gain the Iron
    Throne. If he had won, he would have gained a relatively strong Empire (as
    Micheal did). By comparison, consider a massive wave of evil-led armies
    consisting of Goblins, Dwarves, Orogs, and Elves led by the Gorgon (???)
    that some of the more inane members of this lis say would pour accross the
    plains of Anuire to wipe up the leftovers after such a conflict...this
    never happened because Boerine and Roele did not destroy everything they
    had in their effort to win. The current leaders of Avanil and Boerine
    would, in my opinion, not be foolish enough to start something they could
    not finish, thus damning them to lose either way.

    >Should Avanil or Boeurine
    >fall, their allies would have no option but to capitulate, leaveing the
    >whole of the west securely in the hands of the victor..given even a
    >minimal amount of time, they could defend their lands while building up
    >internal structure. After that, the only real forces left are Mhoried and
    >Ghoere, and we all know how friendly they are..that is assuming Ghoere
    >didn;t look at the situation and try to put himself in the good grces of
    >who he thought would be the winner...

    I'm not sure of the point here...so I'll not comment.

    >
    >In any event, the presence of the Manslayer in the west is perhaps the
    >only thing preventing these powers form declaring full fledged war on each
    >other, and I (for one) think that his position is pretty much
    >unassailable..a good warding spell can prevent anyone from harassing his
    >lands should a threat befome too great...

    Well, I (for one) do NOT think Rhoubhe the Awnsheigh is the only thing
    keepking Boerine and Avanil from all-out war. I believe Diemed, Mhoried,
    and Ghoere are also important factors for these two to avoid commiting 100%
    to the destruction of his enemy. To do so may lead to the victor being too
    weak to stand up to the other leading powers in Anuire. Even if Rhoubhe
    were not there, it is likely that Avanil and Boerine would still be playing
    a long game of chess until one gained a clear, decisive advantage over the
    other.

    - -Clay

  8. #18
    The Olesens
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    I believe Diemed, Mhoried,
    > and Ghoere are also important factors for these two to avoid commiting 100%
    > to the destruction of his enemy. To do so may lead to the victor being too
    > weak to stand up to the other leading powers in Anuire. Even if Rhoubhe
    > were not there, it is likely that Avanil and Boerine would still be playing
    > a long game of chess until one gained a clear, decisive advantage over the
    > other.


    But chess with over ten players, alliances, and the like (hey, that
    wouldn't make a bad variation, if you could find a ten sided board).

  9. #19
    James Ray
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    I dunno - I agree that a bunch of immortal wizards will certainly have an
    infinite amount of magical superiority over those short-lived humans, who,
    by elven standards, dont live long enough to TRULY master the intricacies
    of spell-casting, but the rules dont touch on the matter much. I think
    there must be 2 reasons for the Manslayer still occupying his lil piece of
    Anuire (wasnt he there during the Anuirean Empire, as well?):

    1) The puny humans (of Boeruine and Avanil, at least) are too frightened
    of what he MIGHT be able to do to them if they tried to get rid of him, and
    dont want to weaken their defenses to go after him.

    2) Just because that poster map of Anuire says Rhoube is a 2/7 province
    doesnt MEAN its a 2/7 province. Elven civilization doesnt reduce the level
    of Source Holdings, nor does it despoil the land, so the place could
    actually be a 7/7 (or whatever) province, if you, like myself, prefer the
    idea of a big Elven nation poised for the opportunity to strike out against
    its enemies.

  10. #20
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    At 03:20 AM 6/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
    >
    >I dunno - I agree that a bunch of immortal wizards will certainly have an
    >infinite amount of magical superiority over those short-lived humans, who,
    >by elven standards, dont live long enough to TRULY master the intricacies
    >of spell-casting, but the rules dont touch on the matter much. I think
    >there must be 2 reasons for the Manslayer still occupying his lil piece of
    >Anuire (wasnt he there during the Anuirean Empire, as well?):

    Wait...you think elves should have more mastery of magic that human blooded
    wizards, as a rule? What ever happened to the tendancy of most elves to be
    latent in their studies? To view magic as an interest, not a path to
    ultimate power? In AD&D, elves are inherently different from humans. They
    are not simply long-lived humans. Because of their long lives, they are
    weaker than humans in many ways.
    1) they do not breed nearly as fast as humans
    2) they do not have the "fire" humans do to excell and become extremely
    powerful (i.e., no level limits in any class), BECAUSE of their long life;
    their "flame" burns more slowly, but there is the same amount of "fuel" for
    a elf as there is for a human.
    3) they cannot adapt to new situations as quicly as humans do, because
    they do not have the same amount of "turnover" in generations to bring new
    ideas and use them. Only now, after over a thousand years, are they
    getting a grip on their new place in the world. And they still haven't
    gotten used to the idea of the gods (big problem).

    >
    >1) The puny humans (of Boeruine and Avanil, at least) are too frightened
    >of what he MIGHT be able to do to them if they tried to get rid of him, and
    >dont want to weaken their defenses to go after him.
    >

    agreed. Rhoubhe is powerful, and has very powerful forces. It would take
    all of Anuire to finish him off for sure, or at least all of Western Anuire.

    >2) Just because that poster map of Anuire says Rhoube is a 2/7 province
    >doesnt MEAN its a 2/7 province. Elven civilization doesnt reduce the level
    >of Source Holdings, nor does it despoil the land, so the place could
    >actually be a 7/7 (or whatever) province, if you, like myself, prefer the
    >idea of a big Elven nation poised for the opportunity to strike out against
    >its enemies.

    Er...maybe it's a 2/7 because not many elves are willing to follow a evil,
    Sorcerer, Awnsheigh, Insane Elf. But he still can have as many troops as a
    DM wishes, regardless of his domain strength (which could/should comprise
    mainly fighting people elves, equivilant to a level 6+ province for getting
    new troops).

    - -Clay

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