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  1. #1
    Clayton F. Hinton
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    >He'd say great and maybe try to steal Rhuobe's province for himself while
    >letting Boeruine do all the fighting. He would not attack Boeruine.

    Why on earth not? Boeruine and Avanil have made war on one another for
    centuries, and this would be an excellent opportunity to make Boeruine
    suffer. Besides, because Boeruine knows this he would never stick his neck
    out anyway, which helps explain why Rhoube is still around. One might say,
    that the more powerful Rhoube gets, the more likely a viable alliance would
    form to cast him down a few notches.

    >If he
    >attacked Boeruine he'd annoy every othre human realm in Anuire, and prove
    >himself unworthy of the Iron Throne (supporting the enemies of >humankind).

    This problem can be easily rectified by invading just AFTER Boerine
    finishes his little war with that pesky elf, for better or for worse. And
    invading during the attack on Rhoube would not be so dastardly, since
    Boerine is not well-respected in Anuire anyway. As for annoying every
    other human realm in Anuire, he's already done that, and the Chamberlain
    does not think he's worthy anyway. Duke Avan will get the Iron Throne just
    as soon as he has the force necessary to do so.

    >You don't backstab people who are fighting your racial enemies. To put this
    >in real world terms, what you just proposed is Iraq invading Syria, when
    >Syria is busy with a war with Israel.

    This scenario is equivelant to Medoere invading the Spiderfel; Medoere
    would deserve to get creamed for performing such a stupid act of agression.

    It doesn't happen because Iraq
    >backstabbing Syria in such a fashion would result in every other Islamic
    >state going out of their way to hose Iraq.

    Every one huh? Perhaps you belong in the US State department, not on this
    discussion list. The ability to simplify such a complicated region is
    worth its weight in plutonium.

    >Rhuobe is a threat to all the human domains in the vicinity. If not, over
    >the past 5 centuries, somebody would have put together an alliance to
    >destroy him. Why? because the succesful destruction of such a major
    >awnsheglien would likely put whoever accomplished it either on the fast
    >track to, or if they were already close (Avan, Boeruine, Ghoere) on the
    throne.

    Your wording is a bit confusing here: first you say Rhoube is a threat,
    then you say that if he were not, someone would have put together an
    alliance to crush him.

    Why would someone who is not a threat be worth crushing by an alliance?
    And how could the person who accomplished this be in a better position to
    gain the Iron Throne, if Rhoubhe were not a threat? To my knowledge, just
    killing Awnsheglien is not enough to put you on the Iron Throne.

    I believe that, if Rhoube were more of a threat, he would have the
    neiboring human realms allied against him more often, just for survival's
    sake. This, in turn, would put him in more unwinnable situations, which
    would reduce his power, and put him in the same position he is in now.

    - -Clay

  2. #2
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    Rhuobe is still around because he can't be touched. You invade his realm
    and he knows immediately. He can expertly stage an ambush ANYWHERE in his
    domain, and simply finding Ruannoch in that mass of dense wood is nearly
    impossible.

    Rhuobe also still has allies across the continent. Every year he gains new
    elves to replace lost ones, new faces to fight the hated humans, and he has
    the power of flight. Ruannoch supports a host of 60 flying mounts and the
    riders to go with them. Those are at least three war cards right there,
    and nearly immune to most other cards. Those with the Manslayer fight
    because they are idealists, not because they are looking for money, so he
    doesn't need as much, or even need to make as much. How many of them
    follow him because he's an 18th level fighter?

    Aside from all that, where do his magic portals lead to? In Sword and
    Crown the heroes reach Ruannoch through an underground complex that
    contains an ancient magical portal that whisks them away from any corner of
    Cerilia to Rhuobe. If that exists, where else might they exist, and where
    do they lead, who can he touch? Who can he kill with the right espionage
    action, or if you want, the right adventure. If the Manslayer wants to
    kill a man, whats to say he won't do it himself, or even summon a demon to
    do it for him. I certainly think he can cast "Ensnarement" and task the
    unlucky sod to go after any Cerilian regent.

    the Elf will live until some stupid sod actually manages to reach his most
    sacred citadel and best him in combat. Until that day Rhuobe manslayer
    will live to trouble the lands of men for all time.

    Tim

  3. #3
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    This is a reply to a message by Clayton F. Hinton. I am going to go through
    this point by point in an attempt to clarify my position. For those who
    haven't been paying attention, this thread started with a discussion between
    myself and Randax about whether the Elves or Humans had magical superiority,
    especially WRT # of mages. I suggested that Rhuobe would have died long ago
    if the Elves didn't have some edge.

    At 01:55 PM 6/25/98 -0500, Clayton F. Hinton wrote:

    >
    >>He'd say great and maybe try to steal Rhuobe's province for himself while
    >>letting Boeruine do all the fighting. He would not attack Boeruine.
    >
    >Why on earth not? Boeruine and Avanil have made war on one another for
    >centuries, and this would be an excellent opportunity to make Boeruine
    >suffer. Besides, because Boeruine knows this he would never stick his neck
    >out anyway, which helps explain why Rhoube is still around. One might say,
    >that the more powerful Rhoube gets, the more likely a viable alliance would
    >form to cast him down a few notches.
    >
    >>If he
    >>attacked Boeruine he'd annoy every othre human realm in Anuire, and prove
    >>himself unworthy of the Iron Throne (supporting the enemies of >humankind).
    >
    >This problem can be easily rectified by invading just AFTER Boerine
    >finishes his little war with that pesky elf, for better or for worse. And
    >invading during the attack on Rhoube would not be so dastardly, since
    >Boerine is not well-respected in Anuire anyway. As for annoying every
    >other human realm in Anuire, he's already done that, and the Chamberlain
    >does not think he's worthy anyway. Duke Avan will get the Iron Throne just
    >as soon as he has the force necessary to do so.
    >
    Alright no, Avan is not universally disliked by every other realm in Anuire.
    Like it or not, he has friends, otherwise he wouldn't be a contender for the
    Iron Throne. No one domain in Anuire has the power to take the Iron Throne
    without supporting alliances.
    As for Boeruine being not well respected, Boeruine will make friends
    attacking the Manslayer. Why? because the Manslayer has been massacring
    people for 100's of years in central Anuire. The Manslayer raids all the
    domains surrounding his province. Therefore attacking the Manslayer makes
    you friends, specifically the domains the Manslayer raids (Note that Avanil
    is one of these domains), and all the other domains who have been victimized
    by the Manslayers political machinations. See for example the adventure
    Sword and Crown.
    Also note, that Avan could prove himself worthy of the Iron Throne by being
    a good ruler. The Chamberlain hasn't written him off, he just want's proof
    that whoever he sponsors for the throne will be a good emperor.


    >>You don't backstab people who are fighting your racial enemies. To put this
    >>in real world terms, what you just proposed is Iraq invading Syria, when
    >>Syria is busy with a war with Israel.
    >
    >This scenario is equivelant to Medoere invading the Spiderfel; Medoere
    >would deserve to get creamed for performing such a stupid act of agression.
    >
    If Medoere invaded with inadequate forces and support, sure it would be
    stupid. Otherwise it would be a good idea if they could pull it off. It
    would a) stop the Spider from attacking them if they pulled it off, b)
    acquire them a new province, c) make friends with the other domains the
    spider raids.

    >It doesn't happen because Iraq
    >>backstabbing Syria in such a fashion would result in every other Islamic
    >>state going out of their way to hose Iraq.
    >
    >Every one huh? Perhaps you belong in the US State department, not on this
    >discussion list. The ability to simplify such a complicated region is
    >worth its weight in plutonium.
    >
    This particular case is pretty simple. The arab states (used to) in general
    dislike Israel. Although Syria and Iraq have quarreled over water rights
    before, they allow each other to settle external quarrels before internal
    ones, just like a family. They may argue internally, but to the outside
    world, they try and present a united front.

    >>Rhuobe is a threat to all the human domains in the vicinity. If not, over
    >>the past 5 centuries, somebody would have put together an alliance to
    >>destroy him. Why? because the succesful destruction of such a major
    >>awnsheglien would likely put whoever accomplished it either on the fast
    >>track to, or if they were already close (Avan, Boeruine, Ghoere) on the
    >throne.
    >
    >Your wording is a bit confusing here: first you say Rhoube is a threat,
    >then you say that if he were not, someone would have put together an
    >alliance to crush him.
    >
    That's right, if he wasn't able to effectively protect himself against
    military force, his province would have been over run by now.

    >Why would someone who is not a threat be worth crushing by an alliance?
    >And how could the person who accomplished this be in a better position to
    >gain the Iron Throne, if Rhoubhe were not a threat? To my knowledge, just
    >killing Awnsheglien is not enough to put you on the Iron Throne.
    >
    Killing a mad elven awnsheglien who raids the Anuirean heartlands regularly,
    and whose political manipulations always attempt to cause damage to Anuire
    in general. Let's see, which political groups would this gain you favor
    with? a) The anti-elven racists b) All the churches, which don't like the
    spawn of Azrai running free (after all, this is the spawn of the predecessor
    gods' great enemies) c) it impresses the chamberlain who is looking for a
    ruler with the good of all Anuire in mind d) it buys you political favors
    from all the domains he regularly raids e) Succesfully attacking the enemies
    of humanity will make you popular with the masses. Is that enough political
    reasons to kill him?

    >I believe that, if Rhoube were more of a threat, he would have the
    >neiboring human realms allied against him more often, just for survival's
    >sake. This, in turn, would put him in more unwinnable situations, which
    >would reduce his power, and put him in the same position he is in now.
    >
    All right, the original point of this thread was that Rhuobe needs some sort
    of an edge for his domain to survive, compared to the human military forces
    arrayed against him. You suggest that he is not killed for political
    reasons involving other human domains attacking those that attack Rhuobe.
    As the above discussion suggests, I find this view unconvincing. If the
    Manslayer's Domain does not have the physical capability, someone would have
    chased him out at sometime!

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  4. #4
    pwrobel@colba.ne
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    >
    >Alright no, Avan is not universally disliked by every other realm in Anuire.
    >Like it or not, he has friends, otherwise he wouldn't be a contender for the
    >Iron Throne. No one domain in Anuire has the power to take the Iron Throne
    >without supporting alliances.
    >As for Boeruine being not well respected, Boeruine will make friends
    >attacking the Manslayer. Why? because the Manslayer has been massacring
    >people for 100's of years in central Anuire. The Manslayer raids all the
    >domains surrounding his province. Therefore attacking the Manslayer makes
    >you friends, specifically the domains the Manslayer raids (Note that Avanil
    >is one of these domains), and all the other domains who have been victimized
    >by the Manslayers political machinations. See for example the adventure
    >Sword and Crown.
    >Also note, that Avan could prove himself worthy of the Iron Throne by being
    >a good ruler. The Chamberlain hasn't written him off, he just want's proof
    >that whoever he sponsors for the throne will be a good emperor.
    >
    >Only Avanil really has other nations supporting his bid to become emperor ,
    Boeruine has Talinie but that alliance is more like : " Please Boeruine
    don't invade , we can become your vassal instead .. " Ghoere has Osoerde but
    if I were one of those 2 , I wouldn't trust the other 1 bit . Mhoried has
    friends , but he doesn't have the ambition to become the Emperor .

    Phil
    >

  5. #5
    Trizt
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    On 26-Jun-98, Tim Nutting (zero@wiredweb.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    Whipping up on Rhoube:

    - ->the Elf will live until some stupid sod actually manages to reach his most
    - ->sacred citadel and best him in combat. Until that day Rhuobe manslayer
    - ->will live to trouble the lands of men for all time.
    Don't forget that if he would die by a humans hand, then he will be declared
    matyr (spl?), and a high number of elves will revenge his death (not only his
    former followers, but those who in silence did agree with his methods). There
    is nothing which says that the High Mage Aelies wouldn't revenge his distant
    "relative" and this would happen and one or all the elven realms in Anuire
    would launch an attack against the humans, then I wouldn't want to be one of
    the humans. Don't forget that the Balck Prince will take advantige of the
    situation of the happening, what ever would occure after a such unlikely
    happining as the death of Rhuobe (maybe the Black Prince has an
    "Rhuobe-look-a-like-flesh-golem" which can step in if this hero would die).

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

  6. #6
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    > happining as the death of Rhuobe (maybe the Black Prince has an
    > "Rhuobe-look-a-like-flesh-golem" which can step in if this hero would
    die).

    Simalcrum is also lots of fun. I had my players questing after the
    destruction of a lich, their first one in Al-Qadim. They got to the end of
    this massive fight, battled the lich and won, and were then surprised by
    the fact that the rotting corpse began to melt like ice, because it was.

    Then the lich came out....



    Tim

  7. #7
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    Does the elven race as a whole really follow the whole Good/Evil war? You
    see, to me they seem much more inclined to favor the Law/Chaos aspect of
    the grand battle of ethos'. You'll note that the alignment restrictions
    for the elves prohibits lawful alignments.

    Deismaar was not all that long ago, nor was the human invasion of the elven
    homelands. That the elves could't win before cannot be questioned - the
    largest problem for them was, as the books point out, the magic of clerics.
    Their fights up to this point had been against humanoids who, at best,
    could manage a few illusions and maybe, just maybe a single /cure light
    wounds/. But they've had 1,500 years to prepare.

    Rhuobe himself consorts with otherplanar entities. We know he's evil, but
    he's shifting towar law. As NE, he has the greatest lattitude for a
    summoner, he can call devils, demons, and yugoloths with equinamity. With
    1.5 millenium to work it out (and the elven predisposition for chaos) they
    should easily pick up on the idea that they too can acquire allies from the
    Beyond, the Demons (or Tanar'ri). Yes, it is evil, but hey, who ever
    accused the /ghallie sidhe/ of being concerned over good and evil.

    1500 years, in which at least a tenth of your army fought the ancestorsof
    the new enemy, and have lost none of their edge. Thats a long time to
    prepare strategies.

    Another element, whose to say the humans work together? The human race's
    biggest weakness is our innability to cooperate when our own best interests
    our on the chopping block. If Mhoried and Elinie actually got involved in
    a war with the Sielwode, do you think Ghoere would help them out? No...
    Tael would take advantage of the situation and turn on Roesone or Aerenwe,
    probably enlisting Osoerde's help to do it with too.

    By the time the Mhor hears about Tael's latest conquests, its too late for
    him to do much of anything but say "damn"

    How bout Dhoesone getting in a fight with Tuarhievel? Cariel would send
    aid to Dhoesone if their pigs could fly there. Cariel hates Dhoesone, so
    hey, why not take a chunk ourselves, and just what would Thurazor and the
    Five Peaks do?

    The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they get
    a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.

    Any good warrior will know that the best time to strike is when your enemy
    is least prepared for you.

    Well...
    way too late to keep thinking about this.....
    l8r
    Tim

  8. #8
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    At 01:58 PM 6/26/98 -0700, Tim Nutting wrote:
    >Rhuobe is still around because he can't be touched. You invade his realm
    >and he knows immediately. He can expertly stage an ambush ANYWHERE in his
    >domain, and simply finding Ruannoch in that mass of dense wood is nearly
    >impossible.
    >
    Congratulations on your ability to stage ambushes in the woods. This thread
    started on the basis of Rhuobe getting whipped because Randax says that the
    humans severely overpower the elves in magical terms, cause humans wizards
    are better than elven wizards and the elves don't have priests. I oppose
    this point of view, I say that elven wizards can match human priests and
    wizards/magicians combined. If not, the invasion of Rhuobe goes something
    like this. 1) Use magical superiority to enforce @1 month dry spell in high
    summer. 2) During this dry spell, cut and plough firebreaks in my lands
    adjoining Rhuobe. Move army units up and mages/priests to support this
    activity. 3) After dry spell, use catapults to set fire to elven woods 4)
    watch Elven woods burn for @ 1 month, preventing any magical attempts to
    break the dry spell. 5) Invade the remaining ash covered plains, with 3-1 +
    numerical superiority. 6) Win and dig-in to hold the land.


    >Rhuobe also still has allies across the continent. Every year he gains new
    >elves to replace lost ones, new faces to fight the hated humans, and he has
    >the power of flight. Ruannoch supports a host of 60 flying mounts and the
    >riders to go with them. Those are at least three war cards right there,
    >and nearly immune to most other cards. Those with the Manslayer fight
    >because they are idealists, not because they are looking for money, so he
    >doesn't need as much, or even need to make as much. How many of them
    >follow him because he's an 18th level fighter?

    1) He doesn't have that many allies. The elven nations are outnumbered, and
    because of Randaxian 'Human Magical Superiority' can't afford to send him
    troops.
    2) See human magical superiority in point 1 above. If elves can raise
    flying units, so can humans
    3) He's a 14th level fighter. Fighters get followers once at Name level.
    Everybody gets the same number of them (about 1 unit). Given the # of name
    level human fighters around him, this doesn't give him an edge.


    >
    >Aside from all that, where do his magic portals lead to? In Sword and
    >Crown the heroes reach Ruannoch through an underground complex that
    >contains an ancient magical portal that whisks them away from any corner of
    >Cerilia to Rhuobe. If that exists, where else might they exist, and where
    >do they lead, who can he touch? Who can he kill with the right espionage
    >action, or if you want, the right adventure. If the Manslayer wants to
    >kill a man, whats to say he won't do it himself, or even summon a demon to
    >do it for him. I certainly think he can cast "Ensnarement" and task the
    >unlucky sod to go after any Cerilian regent.
    >
    See also Randaxian magical superiority argument. IF Randax is correct, he's
    gor more to worry about than his opposite numbers. A summoned Marid might
    give him a very hard time.

    >the Elf will live until some stupid sod actually manages to reach his most
    >sacred citadel and best him in combat. Until that day Rhuobe manslayer
    >will live to trouble the lands of men for all time.
    >
    >Tim
    Good luck to the stupid sod. He's gonna need it!

    >************************************************* **************************
    >>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  9. #9
    Trizt
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    On 28-Jun-98, Clayton F. Hinton (chinton@mail.utexas.edu) wrote about Re:
    [BIRTHRIGHT] - Whipping up on Rhoube:

    - ->>What ever happens when Rhoube dies, many humans will loose their lives.

    - ->Ooohh...I'm scared. At worst, for every 5 humans that die, 1 elf will die.
    - -> At least then the humans would come out ahead in the end population-wise.
    - ->Understand now why the elves can't win? Understand now why the elves won't
    - ->all follow Rhoubhe the Awnsheigh into thier own demise? They have not the
    - ->potential to win against humanity, because they are not any more
    - ->well-organized than the human realms are. Infighting is not a disease
    - ->elves are immune to.

    As I did state in my previous mail, if Rhoube dies and no Elven realm starts a
    "revenge war", humans will die as Avan and Aeric _WILL_ start a war against
    eachother as soon as they hear that the Manhunter has died. The fight for the
    throne of Anuire will depopulate most of the human lands.


    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

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  10. #10
    Trizt
    Guest

    Whipping up on Rhoube

    On 29-Jun-98, Tim Nutting (zero@wiredweb.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    Whipping up on Rhoube:

    - ->Deismaar was not all that long ago, nor was the human invasion of the elven
    - ->homelands. That the elves could't win before cannot be questioned - the
    - ->largest problem for them was, as the books point out, the magic of clerics.
    - -> Their fights up to this point had been against humanoids who, at best,
    - ->could manage a few illusions and maybe, just maybe a single /cure light
    - ->wounds/. But they've had 1,500 years to prepare.
    Don't forget that in those days you didn't have realmspells either. I know
    that some of the elven mages don't think it's proper to use realm spells.

    - ->Rhuobe himself consorts with otherplanar entities
    - ->summoner, he can call devils, demons, and yugoloths with equinamity.
    yeppz

    - ->1500 years, in which at least a tenth of your army fought the ancestorsof
    - ->the new enemy, and have lost none of their edge. Thats a long time to
    - ->prepare strategies.
    Depends from whoms point of view, for elves that may be not more than a week
    would seem to be for a human.

    - ->Another element, whose to say the humans work together? The human race's
    - ->biggest weakness is our innability to cooperate when our own best interests
    - ->our on the chopping block. If Mhoried and Elinie actually got involved in
    - ->a war with the Sielwode, do you think Ghoere would help them out? No...
    - ->Tael would take advantage of the situation and turn on Roesone or Aerenwe,
    - ->probably enlisting Osoerde's help to do it with too.
    I have to agree


    - ->How bout Dhoesone getting in a fight with Tuarhievel? Cariel would send
    - ->aid to Dhoesone if their pigs could fly there. Cariel hates Dhoesone, so
    - ->hey, why not take a chunk ourselves, and just what would Thurazor and the
    - ->Five Peaks do?
    At the moment I don't think that Bhoesone would get in a war with Tuarhievel,
    it's more or less an Tuarhievelian satelite state.

    - ->The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they get
    - ->a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.
    Maybe a Shadow-elf will stepp out from the Shadow world ;)



    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

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