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Thread: # of true Mages (was about cost
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06-23-1998, 05:47 PM #1veryfastperson@juno.comGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
>However, Randax, I have questions regarding your statement regarding
>true
>mages. You suggest that there are " about 140 of these folks around
>(of
>whom about 50 are elves)". I must ask are you referring to blooded
>mages
>when you say true mages or are there more human wizards than elven
>wizards
>in your campaign. In my campaign the number of human blooded wizards
>is
>approximately the same the number of blooded elven wizards, simply
>because
>magical training is more available in the elven kingdoms.
Hey now, lets not forget about the College of Sorcery, and all the
schools of Magic in the Khinasi lands. I would say there would be more
for Humans then Elves, simply becaus of numbers. There are a whole hell
of a lot more humans then elves :)
Just a coule GB's to throw in,
Erik
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06-23-1998, 08:16 PM #2Pieter A de JongGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
At 01:47 PM 6/23/98 -0400, Erik Samnhammer wrote:
>
>Hey now, lets not forget about the College of Sorcery, and all the
>schools of Magic in the Khinasi lands. I would say there would be more
>for Humans then Elves, simply becaus of numbers. There are a whole hell
>of a lot more humans then elves :)
Erik, the discussion is of true mages not magicians. Therefore unblooded
humans don't qualify. Are you suggesting that the number of blooded humans
exceeds the elven population (all elves have the ability to cast true magic
and according to a variety of arguments on the net have the minimum
intelligence to be a mage, int >= 9).
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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06-23-1998, 08:22 PM #3Pieter A de JongGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
At 12:31 PM 6/23/98 -0500, Randax wrote:
>
>In previous work done by that Mighty Dane Jan Arnoldus, the number of true
mages
>in published materials (before TotHW) was tallied. The count was 72 human
>blooded wizards and 12 elves. Assuming half of these have apprentices and 5 at
>the Temple of Rilni, you have 131. Allowing 10 for Tribes, add a few PCs and
>(DM created) NPCs we're at (or above) the limit.
>
>>From these demographics, elves are definately in the minority- moreso than I
>recalled. Your post made me dig for the old thread. I'd revise the
estimate of
>elven mages to about 25. 12+2(those I recall from Tribes)+7 apprentices+4(20%
>slop factor). They're rarer than you or I thought.
>
>Randax
>
Yes Randax, I agree, there are probably more blooded humans than there are
elves. However, from your figures, you are only considering blooded mages
as true wizards. This suggests a 3 steps differentiation between the types
of magic users, magicians, wizards, and blooded wizards. The 1st
(magicians) and 2nd (wizards) steps might be available as lt's, however I
would suggest not allowing blooded true mages as lt's. Rather, they should
be allies and regents of their own. Indeed, it would be very difficult to
acquire a true wizard as a lt. as the only non-blooded true wizards are
elves, who would likely require paymnt in something other than cash.
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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06-23-1998, 09:26 PM #4prtr02@scorpion.nspco.coGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
- ----- Begin Included Message -----
>In previous work done by that Mighty Dane Jan Arnoldus, the number of true
mages
>in published materials (before TotHW) was tallied. The count was 72 human
>blooded wizards and 12 elves. Assuming half of these have apprentices and 5 at
>the Temple of Rilni, you have 131. Allowing 10 for Tribes, add a few PCs and
>(DM created) NPCs we're at (or above) the limit.
>
>>From these demographics, elves are definately in the minority- moreso than I
>recalled. Your post made me dig for the old thread. I'd revise the
estimate of
>elven mages to about 25. 12+2(those I recall from Tribes)+7 apprentices+4(20%
>slop factor). They're rarer than you or I thought.
>
>Randax
>
Yes Randax, I agree, there are probably more blooded humans than there are
elves. However, from your figures, you are only considering blooded mages
as true wizards. This suggests a 3 steps differentiation between the types
of magic users, magicians, wizards, and blooded wizards. The 1st
(magicians) and 2nd (wizards) steps might be available as lt's, however I
would suggest not allowing blooded true mages as lt's. Rather, they should
be allies and regents of their own. Indeed, it would be very difficult to
acquire a true wizard as a lt. as the only non-blooded true wizards are
elves, who would likely require paymnt in something other than cash.
- ----- End Included Message -----
I believe we agree on most everything- how hard it would be to hire a wizard etc
except for the fact that all elven wizards, blooded or not, are included in
the above figures. Granted, most of the elves in published works are blooded,
but with only 140 true mages, there in no room left for a significant number of
unidentified, unblooded elves running about.
When I say significant, I mean 5-10. You could sneak in an unblooded elven
wizard here or there to fit your story, or mess with the number of human
apprentices; decreasing their number in favor of a few more elves. In general
though, there just isn't enough room for more than a handful without changing a
fundamental premise of BR.
There are a number of good pro-elven arguements for an increased number or
power of elven wizards that fly in the face of the hard published numbers. Mostof these involve elven immortality. This is one of the major reasons, if you
accept the published material as gospel, I say elven immortality is a myth.
A couple thousand year lifespan effectively immortal to the ephemeral humans-
sure. Truly immortal?- no. I don't think that we, as mortal beings, can
really comprehend the ramifications of an immortal race. The initial BR authorsincluded it because it sounded cool. I don't think they considered some of
the population, demographic, and storyline problems. They just thought it
would be neat. You can still have most of the cool story effects involving
elves with a 2000 year lifespan- "...you leave the fairy ring after dancing all
night with the Siegh and realise 30 years has passed!" without many of the
head-splitting complications "...if elves are immortal and attuned to magic, how come there aren't a lot more elven wizards?" Not to mention with unlimited
wizard level advancement, why aren't there a bunch of 'em who are level 30+?
I think even 3-4 level 30-40 elven wizards would radically alter the feel of the
entire BR setting. Wizards of any race who were that powerful would surely be
published by now if they were envisioned by the designers.
Elven immortality is a myth. Not that you need to tell your PCs that. Their
characters certainly think it's true.
Randax
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06-24-1998, 08:20 PM #5Pieter A de JongGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
At 04:26 PM 6/23/98 -0500, Randax wrote:
>
>
>I believe we agree on most everything- how hard it would be to hire a
wizard etc
>except for the fact that all elven wizards, blooded or not, are included in
>the above figures. Granted, most of the elves in published works are blooded,
>but with only 140 true mages, there in no room left for a significant number of
>unidentified, unblooded elves running about.
>
>When I say significant, I mean 5-10. You could sneak in an unblooded elven
>wizard here or there to fit your story, or mess with the number of human
>apprentices; decreasing their number in favor of a few more elves. In general
>though, there just isn't enough room for more than a handful without changing a
>fundamental premise of BR.
>
>There are a number of good pro-elven arguements for an increased number or
>power of elven wizards that fly in the face of the hard published numbers.
Mostof these involve elven immortality. This is one of the major reasons,
if you
>accept the published material as gospel, I say elven immortality is a myth.
>A couple thousand year lifespan effectively immortal to the ephemeral humans-
>sure. Truly immortal?- no. I don't think that we, as mortal beings, can
>really comprehend the ramifications of an immortal race. The initial BR
authorsincluded it because it sounded cool. I don't think they considered
some of
>the population, demographic, and storyline problems. They just thought it
>would be neat. You can still have most of the cool story effects involving
>elves with a 2000 year lifespan- "...you leave the fairy ring after dancing all
>night with the Siegh and realise 30 years has passed!" without many of the
>head-splitting complications "...if elves are immortal and attuned to
magic, how come there aren't a lot more elven wizards?" Not to mention with
unlimited
>wizard level advancement, why aren't there a bunch of 'em who are level 30+?
>I think even 3-4 level 30-40 elven wizards would radically alter the feel
of the
>entire BR setting. Wizards of any race who were that powerful would surely be
>published by now if they were envisioned by the designers.
>
>Elven immortality is a myth. Not that you need to tell your PCs that. Their
>characters certainly think it's true.
>
>Randax
Why are the elves still alive in your campaign Randax? They have no
priestly magic, much smaller armies (lower population base), and now
according to you, the humans have magical superiority by a large factor, as
the number of human wizards alone exceeds the number of wizards available to
the elves, never mind magicians. To be blunt, Rhuobe Manslayer wouldn't
last 3 domain turns in your world. Why hasn't Coeranys expanded into and
chopped down the Sielwode, with similar invasions happening all over the
continent. It's not the like the elves have friendly relations with more
than one in four human nations. Unless the elves have some advantage, the
human nations should be swarming all over them. Which regent do you know
whose going to pass up on a shot at a few extra provinces with minimal risk?
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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06-25-1998, 01:52 AM #6veryfastperson@juno.comGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
>Erik, the discussion is of true mages not magicians. Therefore
>unblooded
>humans don't qualify. Are you suggesting that the number of blooded
>humans
>exceeds the elven population (all elves have the ability to cast true
>magic
>and according to a variety of arguments on the net have the minimum
>intelligence to be a mage, int >= 9).
No, I am not suggesting the number of Blooded Humans exceeds the elven
population - i am sorry for any misunderstandings :)
what i am saying, is that not all elves have the calling towards true
magic. I follow Simon Hawkes book War, for the elven way of thinking, and
not many find that kind of calling towards Magic.
But with humans, any minor noble (third or fouth son of a blooded noble)
who wants to make a name for himself, can enroll in the College of
Sorcery - and learn true magic. Sometimes, a blooded noble will SEND his
child to learn the arts of magic, to enhance his power and standing :)
So with the number of Blooded Nobles and their sons running around, I DO
believe that they number more then the elven mages :)
Just my humble opinion :)
Erik
>
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06-25-1998, 02:09 AM #7veryfastperson@juno.comGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
>Why are the elves still alive in your campaign Randax? They have no
>priestly magic, much smaller armies (lower population base), and now
>according to you, the humans have magical superiority by a large
>factor, as
>the number of human wizards alone exceeds the number of wizards
>available to
>the elves, never mind magicians. To be blunt, Rhuobe Manslayer
>wouldn't
>last 3 domain turns in your world. Why hasn't Coeranys expanded into
>and
>chopped down the Sielwode, with similar invasions happening all over
>the
>continent. It's not the like the elves have friendly relations with
>more
>than one in four human nations. Unless the elves have some advantage,
>the
>human nations should be swarming all over them. Which regent do you
>know
>whose going to pass up on a shot at a few extra provinces with minimal
>risk?
I could throw a guess into this question :)
Anyone foolish enough to make a stike at an elven nation, would himself
be invaded. Who would be bold enough to strike at Rhoubhe? Boeruine? not
hardly. if he put out enough energy to wipe out old Rhoubhe, then he in
turn would be invaded by Taeghas, and Avanil. If Coeranys expanded into
the Sielwode, then the Chimearon would /probably/ find enough time to
take a couple of the provinces away from Coeranys :)
Of course, that's all i'd do if i were the DM (and this is all IMHO :)
Good Gaming,
Erik
>
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06-25-1998, 03:43 PM #8Pieter A de JongGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
At 10:09 PM 6/24/98 -0400, Erik M. wrote:
>>Why are the elves still alive in your campaign Randax?
>
>I could throw a guess into this question :)
>
>Anyone foolish enough to make a stike at an elven nation, would himself
>be invaded. Who would be bold enough to strike at Rhoubhe? Boeruine? not
>hardly. if he put out enough energy to wipe out old Rhoubhe, then he in
>turn would be invaded by Taeghas, and Avanil. If Coeranys expanded into
>the Sielwode, then the Chimearon would /probably/ find enough time to
>take a couple of the provinces away from Coeranys :)
>
>Of course, that's all i'd do if i were the DM (and this is all IMHO :)
>
>Good Gaming,
>Erik
First, it's not like all these other nations are the Elves friends. I would
suggest that these other nations would much more likely join the land rush,
also attacking the elves as most of the nations that your talking about are
human. Remember, humans don't like Elves in this world.
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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06-25-1998, 03:59 PM #9Pieter A de JongGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
At 09:52 PM 6/24/98 -0400, Erik wrote:
>
>
>>Erik, the discussion is of true mages not magicians. Therefore
>>unblooded
>>humans don't qualify. Are you suggesting that the number of blooded
>>humans
>>exceeds the elven population (all elves have the ability to cast true
>>magic
>>and according to a variety of arguments on the net have the minimum
>>intelligence to be a mage, int >= 9).
>
>No, I am not suggesting the number of Blooded Humans exceeds the elven
>population - i am sorry for any misunderstandings :)
>
>what i am saying, is that not all elves have the calling towards true
>magic. I follow Simon Hawkes book War, for the elven way of thinking, and
>not many find that kind of calling towards Magic.
>
>But with humans, any minor noble (third or fouth son of a blooded noble)
>who wants to make a name for himself, can enroll in the College of
>Sorcery - and learn true magic. Sometimes, a blooded noble will SEND his
>child to learn the arts of magic, to enhance his power and standing :)
>
>So with the number of Blooded Nobles and their sons running around, I DO
>believe that they number more then the elven mages :)
>
>Just my humble opinion :)
>Erik
>>
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06-25-1998, 04:14 PM #10veryfastperson@juno.comGuest
# of true Mages (was about cost
>First, it's not like all these other nations are the Elves friends. I
>would
>suggest that these other nations would much more likely join the land
>rush,
>also attacking the elves as most of the nations that your talking
>about are
>human. Remember, humans don't like Elves in this world.
Yes, and how would Duke Avan react if Duke Boeruine suddenly attacked
Rhoubhe? He would amass his armies, and strik at Boeruine, while his
armies were off killing elves. Duke Boeruine would be too cautious to
invade Rhobhe.
Humans don't like elves, but that doesnt' mean they like eachother :)
Erik
>
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